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Guan-type bowl, juice1499
Some members have made some excellent observations in regards to this interesting bowl and I just wanted to drop a line on here to clear up some confusion and also address some later assumptions that were made.
This is indeed the same bowl that was recently sold be Heritage and formerly sold by Christie's in 2015. I have had a couple similar bowls in the past but thought the glaze on this example was particularly attractive and unusual. Given where the bidding was at Heritage, it seemed like a fair price and a good opportunity to study the piece for a few days before offering it up for sale. Actually right after the sale ended a couple bidders made offers to purchase the bowl through the Heritage post sale offer system with the last offer being $4000. I declined the offer as I was looking forward to examining it in person(Ive included a screen shot of the offer that was sent through Heritage). Also for the record I have no clue at all who consigned the piece to Heritage and have actually never sold anything through Heritage myself.
In regards to the coloring in the photos, as many of you know, it can be really tough to get it exact. This is especially true with some various monochrome type glazes as well as jades as many of you know. We have multiple monitors in our office and the photos of the bowl look different on each one. We just have to do our best to try various lighting and settings on the camera to get it as close as we can to how it looks in person.
Finally, in regards to some later suggestions...... never do I knowingly list something as old or antique to deceive a potential buyer. Have I made mistakes in the past, of course, and any Asian art dealer who states that they haven't made a mistake in the past is not telling the truth. But never do I list an item as old that I do not feel is such. I want everyone who buys from me to be thrilled with what they get, that is why I always allow a buyer 14 days to return any item for any reason at all. This business supports my large family and I would never do anything to jeopardize that.
To the many of you on here who know I do things the right way and have done a lot of business with me in the past, I thank you for your continued support.
PS: If there are any more questions in regards to this particular bowl, feel free to reach out. It really is a neat example.
I apologize if I jumped too early to conclusions and I should have given you the benefit of the doubt and not judged your intentions.
That being said, I have been following asian art auction all around the world for the past few years. From ebay to christies to the smallest local auctions. I know what authentic chinese antiques you expect to see coming from peoples house in North American and Europe and the type of fakes that are being exported from China.
When at look at your auctions, you either give a precise dating of a piece or you simply call it "old" or "antique". In my humble opinion, most of the time when you do not precisely date a piece and simply throw the terms "old" or "antique", the item is brand new. I am not able to say if you do it on purpose and again, I apologize if I assumed you did. But you will not convince me that the following items are neither old or antique:
Among a few other which might have some age but, I think, were not accurately dated. (like the ming style bassin)
I apologise if my original observations were caused by the colour of the images shown on my tablet and not my laptop.
However, although I am still learning about Chinese ceramics I must say that in image 8 of your Yuhuchunping blue and white dragon decoration vase the label 'Yuen c.1350.' appears to identify the vase as being a Yuan piece. Below is the link to Alain R Truong's post showing three examples of Yuan vases with this type of decoration.
It seems to me that his post shows that the pattern of the scales on each of the dragons was formed by a crosshatch pattern.
I agree with Springmeier about the blue and white peaches vase and the low blue bowl. These look recent to me, especially the bottoms, though, as we saw, pictures can be deceptive. Maybe Stuart could give his opinion about the dragon vase.
I think Mr.Chamberlain has been doing this for long enough to know how likely he is to randomly fall on a genuine yuan dragon Yuhuchunping in almost perfect condition and buy it so cheap he can afford to re-sell it on ebay without reserve. To be fair he hasn't described the vase as Yuan on the ebay page so there is nothing wrong there. But the "antique" attribution might confuse unsuspecting buyers.
The vase is brand new with fake damage and age signs meant to deceive (accusing the vase itself not Mr.Chamberlain). Also note the way "yuen" is written on the sticker. Awkwardly written by someone who is obviously not used to write in the latin alphabet.
How can you be certain the vase is new? I agree the painting style looks somewhat odd but there are many variations in style seen on real Yuan pieces and while I can't find any examples of pear-shaped vases with dragons painted with over-lapping scales there seem to be this example painted in copper-red, supposedly at Jingdezhen China Ceramics Museum.
And also blue and white examples painted on pieces in other shapes like on this jar sold at Sotheby's.
Besides that there are also copies made in the 19/20th century and probably also earlier. How can you be certain the vase is not an antique or semi-antique copy rather than a modern one?
Hi all -
Re:- yuhuchug-ping dragon vase ...
Attach images for comparison of the vase currently been offered by Josh and three genuine Yuan dynasty examples ...
1:- Chamberlain example.
2:- Lot 38, sold Sotheby’s Hong Kong 7 April 2011, ex Charles. E. Russell coll (until 1936 - one of two vases), ex Mr & Mrs A. Clark Coll (1936 until the 1970’s - one of two vases) and ex Meiyintang Coll until sold at Sotheby’s 2011.
3:- the pair to the Russell, Clark coll, then in the Ataka Coll and now in the Museum of Oriental Ceramics, Osaka.
4:- yuhuchun-ping vase excavated from a tomb at Qingzhou, Shandong Province in 1985.
5/6&7:- close up details of the heads on the juice1499, ex Meiyintang and Qingzhou examples.
8&9:- the classic scroll on the juice1499 and Qingzhou pieces.
10&11:- foot-rim and base of the juice1499 and Qingzhou pieces ...
Note the differences in the painting styles between the example been offered by juice1499 and the others, especially the detailing of the heads, the length/detailing of the legs, body scales, top body fins, flames and classic scroll. Also note the differences in cobalt tone, its application, overall glaze tone, base and foot-rim colouring/tone and the finishing of the foot/rim and base ...
So certainly not Yuan ...
Personally, I have never seen a Yuan dragon decorated yuhuchun-ping where the scales are not rendered in the ‘crosshatch’ pattern - but that is not to say they were not made during the Yuan, as I have seen a stem bowl where the scales are drawn in the ‘fine outline’ style - which the copyists have used on the juice1499 piece ...
As Springmeier quite correctly mentions, Mr Chamberlain has not described this as Yuan dynasty but as ‘antique’. I do not know the definition applied to that word in the USA but, in the UK, it means the object is at least 100 years old ...
A small history lesson:- it was not until the 1952, when John. A. Pope published his seminal work ‘A Group of Chinese Porcelains in the Topkapu Sarayi Muzesi, Istanbul, (followed by his 1956 ‘Chinese Ceramics in the Ardebil Shrine) that study on the identification and classification of Yuan wares really commenced. Until then, such wares were very misunderstood and attributed dating to the Song Dynasty, 14th/15th and 16th C were all widely used ...
As far as I’am aware, no authentic copies of these dragon yuhuchun-ping (or indeed any decorated yuhuchun-pings) are known from the 19th or early/mid 20th centuries, and neither have any been published ...
So, if this vase had any age, it’s probably no more then 50 years old, at the most but, looking at the images, it’s probably fairly new and made to deceive - IMO (as with Springmeier - accusing the vase, not Mr Chamberlain or his description of such) ...
As for the copper-red example posted by@avater this is - IMO - a dreadful fake. The painting style alone - especially of the body scales/clouds - indicates such. The Yuan potters had immense difficulty control this colourant and all know authentic examples show wide variations in colour/tone and diffusion of the red which tends to run excessively. It was not until the early Ming that the potters were able to successfully control this underglazed copper red ...
Sorry, my mistake about the copper-red vase. I found the pictures at this site that also show real examples from museums and auctions so I thought it was good. I should have checked more carefully posted the pictures. https://gramho.com/explore-hashtag/yuhuchunping
So I've found an authentic Yuan dynasty pear-shaped vase with a similar base, with the sunken medallion in the middle and the trimming of the foot-ring, as the the one at eBay. https://www.arcimboldo.cz/en/auctions/chinese-art-antiques-1/vaza-hruskoviteho-tvaru-ju-chu-cchun-pching And a 19/20th century copy that also has the same base. https://www.coronariauctions.com/en/auction-asian-european-and-islamic-arts-2/964-a-chinese-blue-and-white-yuan-style-yuhuchunping-vase-with-a-dragon-qing-or-later So we can conclude that the base of the vase at eBay is in fact correct and that they actually DID make copies in the Qing dynasty and later on or have I misunderstood something?
And I've also found this Yuan dynasty dragon bowl that is in a Chinese museum. (The picture is used as reference by Sotheby's so I assume it's authentic.) As you can see the cobalt blue color matches perfectly and interestingly the the dragons scales are also painted the same way as on the eBay vase. So we can now conclude that the cobalt blue color of the eBay vase is in fact also correct?
Then there is painting style and especially the detailing of the dragon. This is more tricky since there is such a huge variation and in the lot essay regarding the dragon jar I first posted it is noted that:
"Yuan designs reflect the artistic freedom and innovative climate encouraged by the Mongol rulers at the time, who gave potters employed by the Fouling Porcelain Bureau, located in Jingdezhen, Jiangxi province and established in 1278, carte blanche to create pieces that satisfied both domestic and export markets. In fact, following the technical perfection achieved with the making of large white-glazed wares and the availability of precious cobalt for decoration, there was no limit to the artistic expression that went into the making of blue-and-white pieces. Individually styled and exquisitely crafted wares became the new luxurious items of the 14th century, highly sought after by the Yuan court as well as other parts of the Mongol Empire, Central Asia and the Islamic world." https://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/lot.90.html/2013/fine-chinese-ceramics-works-of-art-l13211 So we can also conclude that even though the style an detailing might appear different it is not necessarily incorrect, or am I getting it all wrong?
I've found the sale of the vase at Skinner where it was dated to the late 20th century but in this case the dating should probably not be relied on since Skinner is famous for wrongful dating and descriptions. Many of the of the pieces at sale at Chamberlain come from the same sale at Skinner. But note the difference in tone of the cobalt blue color. This clearly demonstrates that photographs can't relied on to judge the true color of a piece since it can vary a lot depending on technique and lightning situations. Same with the glossiness of the glaze. My personal opinion is that the vase could be an authentic Yuan dynasty example but that is just my opinion and I am absolutely not certain. https://www.skinnerinc.com/auctions/3404T/lots/1062
Another blue and white pear-shaped vase was on sale at Skinner in 2010 where it was undated and estimated at only $150-250. https://www.skinnerinc.com/auctions/2528B/lots/663
But the same vase appear again at Michaan's in 2019 where it is dated to the Yuan dynasty and estimated at $80,000-120,000! https://asianartnewspaper.com/asian-works-of-art/
The blue and white peach vase has also been sold at Heritage Auctions where it was described as Yongzheng mark and period. https://fineart.ha.com/itm/ceramics-and-porcelain/a-chinese-blue-and-white-porcelain-peach-vase-qing-dynasty-yongzheng-period-marks-six-character-yongzheng-mark-and-of-the-per/a/8001-78131.s?ic16=ViewItem-BrowseTabs-Inventory-BuyNowFromOwner-ThisAuction-120115
The yellow glazed enameled covered jar has also been sold at Skinner where it was dated to the Republic Period. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Very-Fine-Antique-Chinese-Yellow-Glazed-Enameled-Covered-Jar-with-Qianlong-Mark/184357600026?hash=item2aec91bb1a:g:pbMAAOSwhbZfBi~J https://www.ebay.com/itm/Very-Fine-Antique-Chinese-Yellow-Glazed-Enameled-Covered-Jar-with-Qianlong-Mark/184357600026?hash=item2aec91bb1a:g:pbMAAOSwhbZfBi~J
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