The border is nice.  Early 1800s is a bit exaggerated, it’s around 1860 in my opinion. Price seems adequate as there’s a rim chip. 

@shinigami Yes, at least mid 19th, I think he meant 1830 Daoguang which is possible too but later imo. I am not in the USA but if i ws then i would make some sort of offer on this, as it is exceptional good quality and i have not see one quite like this. 

@short-dong Famous last words of someone who might have bought a later copy...."I have not seen one quite like this."

Let's look closely at the faces of this plate and two mid 19th c. plates (one of which has the traits of Tongzhi famille rose faces).

Your plate - 

Mid 19th c. with Tongzhi style rendering of faces

Mid 19th c. with traditional rose medallion faces

The bats are not the flowery type element one would expect for export ware to Europe.... I think 20th c., but I'm not sure if early 20th c. or later without seeing the back.

@greeno107 

Here are pictures of the back, I cannot purchase it, as it is too far away.So i have not scrutinised it, but the detail is indicative of an earlier famille rose. It is too much work for anyone to fake. I mean it is possible, but all that work for not much in return. There are black specs on the back which again is unusual. So that is not good.  

Posted by: @greeno107

@short-dong Famous last words of someone who might have bought a later copy...."I have not seen one quite like this."

Let's look closely at the faces of this plate and two mid 19th c. plates (one of which has the traits of Tongzhi famille rose faces).

Your plate - 

Mid 19th c. with Tongzhi style rendering of faces

Mid 19th c. with traditional rose medallion faces

The bats are not the flowery type element one would expect for export ware to Europe.... I think 20th c., but I'm not sure if early 20th c. or later without seeing the back.

I have a early famille rose and I have compared and they are almost identical. So i have no no issue with the rendering of the faces. I also have not had time to get my other plates out and have a good gander at the back of the plates. In fact the more i compare it does seem they are carbon copies down to some minute details. 

I am going to just go with my gut that this plate is good. 

Famous Last words of Ricky Bobby and Ricky Bobby always come first.  

THIS IS THE EBAY PLATE

EBAY PLATE

THESE are from my own Famille Rose Charger here at my home.I think my Charger is early 19th century. It is certainly very good quality so suitable to use as a comparison.

 Ebay Plate 

Another Famille rose I have, an average canton punch bowl

Ebay plate

Again this are 100% Daoguang Famille Rose i got recently, it is in my media so I dont have a close up. 

I believe earlier pieces have lots of gilding in the ladies hair and the figures are well proportioned.  I think there is also something about later pieces making more use of black especially on borders on the cartouches and possibly something about the style of the butterflies and flowers helps with dating.

I think the faces on the ebay piece are very distinctively angular.  That should offer a good comparison with undisputedly dated pieces. 

It is quite tricky sorting these out so I think I may start compiling records of all the features and colours etc just to get it clear in my head.  I have been meaning to do it for a while and that tiger plate brought the intention back to the front burner - so to speak! 😊 

@julia Yes, I have read that also. As for modern pieces they are rarely such good quality. However, as for dating Peter did mention in one of his videos that the earlier Famille Rose tend to have greater detail. By earlier I mean around mid 19th century and earlier. I guess even 1860 famille rose will have much better detail. 

I have a very good collection of famille rose and from looking at it routinely you get an instinct for it. In fact i am going to take Greeno up on his comment in the Peking glass thread about looking at an item wholistically. Which is not what he is doing here. 

@greeno107

If you look at this plate wholistically then you would not make the mistake of thinking this plate is a later copy. You did mean it was a  modern copy. That is what you can only have meant. 

Let's look at thing wholistcally. 

How much does a modern handpainted Dinner set cost in modern term's. The answer is thousands of pounds/dollars/euro. In fact just a plate can set you can $300 or up to $1600. These are 'master painters' and you can be sure they are well paid. 

This plate is beautfiul and i doubt you will ever find something as fine in Herend and certainly not for $60. You made your own mistake of not being wholistic in your approach. To have this attitude that something is fake or a copy, because of some detail, when realistically a painter of this skill could sell plates for thosuands of euro. They have no need to fake a famile rose, when the current market offers a much greater incentive. High end dinnerplates have been around longer than famille rose value ever has. In short famille rose can be undervalued and this is such a piece. So i stand by posting this as a good oppourtunity to get an undervalued famille rose but not for $60 as the seller is open to offers, you might get it for $40. That is a bargain no matter when it was made. However it is no modern copy, that is ridiculous notion but it might not be Daoguang and or it might be late 19th century and if this is important then that is another discussion. However such detail is indicative of an earlier piece and this fit's the bill.

Let's take Herend porcelain

https://www.herendexperts.com/product-category/standalone-products/plates/?orderby=price-desc

This handpainted plate would set you back $1600 and that is for just one plate.

Net
price€1,650

Total: 6 pieces Herend fine china items

The Coffee Cup w. Dessert Plate painted with Eglantine Wild Roses pattern.

Usually, EGAVT design painted on a unique Dubarry shape.
This pattern is rich gilded.

Silk Brocade - EGAVT is painted only by Master Painters!

Net
price€3,058

Coffee Cup w. Dessert Plate for 2 People - Silk Brocade / Eglantine quantity

Price for European Union Customers: €3,670 (Including VAT)

I got some better images of my plate as it is now daylight. 

The EBAY plate

My plate

 versus ebay 

My plate

 Ebay

@short-dong Unfortunately, I think the better photos only serve to harden my belief that this is a 20th c. plate, perhaps even post 1950.

Are you sure you don't see the difference in the quality of your genuine plate and the Ebay plate?  Come on, now.... you see it!

Early rose medalion used mostly opaque enamels, but the colors were splendid, and the rendering was done very acurately / finely.  I suppose if bats were ever used in the rose medallion decor of the early period, the bats would be rendered with tremendous care...these bats are almost an after thought.

Later 19th c. examples, the quality of the enamel almost becomes transparent and have a light washed out appearance.

Holistically, the overall enamels are too dark to be late 19th c., and too poorly rendered to be early 19th c. I'll also would like to point that the floor is enamelled in some type of iron red that looks like brown mud - hmmm.

From a theme point of view, why the bats?  I'm sure you're aware that bats (fu) are a blessing for wealth, and five bats (wu fu) a blessing for eternal wealth.  So, why are the bats depicted in groups of 6?  That's strange to say the least for a period piece.

Finally, when I consider what makes an 'exemplary' piece, it is rarely about being of an unusual design (bats on a rose medallion piece), but rather a piece that shows the highest quality of execution, use of color & materials, and a design that represents the period made.  This is why mark & period pieces command such high prices, as genuine m & p pieces check all of these boxes.

With export wares, I'm willing to be a bit more forgiving, but none of the boxes are checked off for me on this plate.

Interestingly, the back of the plate looks like an early 20th c. plate, but I wonder if blanks may have been decorated at a later time.

I found two more plates with the squarish noses, both heavily gilded and this one has the bats. That is all there is as it was on ebay and the link is dead, but you can see the bats - they look like they have sunglasses. Both plates rather losely dated by sellers to 19th c. A lot of sellers say that rather optimistically, of course. I think these may be, but I do accept Tim's remarks about colours.

https://images.app.goo.gl/UkHWSchXXJQLKhxZ8

Posted by: @julia

I found two more plates with the squarish noses, both heavily gilded and this one has the bats. That is all there is as it was on ebay and the link is dead, but you can see the bats - they look like they have sunglasses. Both plates rather losely dated by sellers to 19th c. A lot of sellers say that rather optimistically, of course. I think these may be, but I do accept Tim's remarks about colours.

https://images.app.goo.gl/UkHWSchXXJQLKhxZ8

 

 🤣 🤣 I was going to say the same thing. The bats really do look like they are wearing shades. 

@imperialfinegems @jbeer2121 @shinigami @yinchris @clayandbrush @watership @sharonp @henry-higgins @william @ming1449   @lotusblack @lep @steve @johnshoe @xin_fawis @kirby13 @kirby13

Please cast your vote on the famille rose plate below. 

Genuine 19th century or mid to late 20th Century copy..post 1950 famille rose

A

Genuine

or

B

Mid 20th century copy 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/114959131222?hash=item1ac4192256byQAAOSwPJphKs0N&mkcid=1&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&siteid=0&customid=link&campid=5337935675&toolid=20001&mkevt=1

I think it is impossible to have an artist this talented making fake plates that would sell for peanuts when they could make modern porcelain and become famous and rich. 

@short-dong 

Blue and orange bats with sunglasses? 😆 I love 'em!

But seriously, I am going to go with A. It's genuine.

It's a rather unusual example, isn't it?

P.S. My apologies for responding without having first read the thread. I did not know this was controversial. 

Posted by: @steve

@short-dong 

Blue and orange bats with sunglasses? 😆 I love 'em!

But seriously, I am going to go with "What is authentic, 19th c.", Alex.

It's a rather unusual example, isn't it?

🙂

😎 😎 😎 v 🤪 

I am putting the score at 3 v 1 for the plate to be genuine famille rose and not a mid 20th century or later copy.

P.s I know Julia has not decided yet but I am optimistic she will vote for the genuine famille rose as if she felt it was fake she would have said so by now.