Dear Corey,

I've watched this seller, antiquities_maison, or whatever he's calling himself, for quite some time now, and I haven't seen him offer anything that's authentic, this vase included. Beware of him.

All the best,

Alan

 And looking over his current offerings, here's another one that people should have trouble with:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/FINE-CHINESE-PORCELAIN-DRAGON-ZHADOU-ZHENGDE-MARK/232871239205?hash=item3638351e25:g:dF4AAOSw44JbYjAl

These zhadou vessels of the Zhengde reign have a four-character reign mark, normally, not a six-character reign mark, as has this one. That, plus other oddities in the design and enamels, should be sufficient warning.

Alan

The direct link to the vase at musée guimet is invalid. Pictures of it ataached below. The eBay seller is the same as marchant auctions at liveauctioneers.

https://www.liveauctioneers.com/auctioneer/1555/marchant-auction-and-estates-sales-llc/

I always thought their items looked authentic although their low estimate - no reserve auctions are highly suspect. For some strange reason they haven't dated their items in their eBay sales, while they are always dated in the listings on liveauctioneers.  The Zhengde mark zhadao is not described as period. The Qianlong mark soft paste vase is not described as period either but looks like authentic mark  and period to me. Sadly these items has not been listedon liveauctioneers that could have given us a more accurate description. They used to sell off the unpaid items from their own auctions on eBay. I have never had luck to win any of their items though.

Hi Corey and Alan,

I just had a quick through the listing and also had a look at his last auction.

Firstly his last auction contained many if not all fakes.

Secondly the ebay auction today I would have to tell you stay away for the following reasons.

1. I don't know the so-called provenance of said item. If he did indeed travel with President Richard Milhouse Nixon in his China trip in 1972, he would not have been alone. Nixon along with advisers and a number of press also traveled with him. That alone does not make him a collector or expert in all thing with chinese porcelain and jade that are on offer.

2. Is the seller offering anything else to prove that this belonged to so and so?

3. Why did Sotheby's reject these items?

4. I have concerns regarding the footing in the last picture ? 

I did have a quick look at the 2 jade items on offer and I can tell you now from what I can see in the pictures they are modern and NOT what they appear to be!

Mark

BTW do not confuse this auction house's name that is located in Houston Texas with Marchant Asian Art located in the UK (legit dealers)

Mark

Dear Mark,

All sound points you make there in your last post. I hope all Forum readers take heed.

Alan

The soft paste vase previously listed at liveauctioneers wher it was described as Qianlong mark and period.

https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/21433736_1-chinese-porcelain-vase-qianlong-mark-and-period

It really is a shame if these itmes listed at liveauctioneers are all fakes like you say, because I have used their pictures extensively as reference. Back in 2014 I bought a couple of pieces from a US seller via eBay (not described as period pieces) including a Qianlong marked celadon hu shaped vase with archaistic relief decoration. when I researched them I concluded that the items he was selling was not modern but probably 19/20th century copies, but with the feeling the the two pieces I bough could be mark and period. Then shortly after an identical vase was listed at liveauctioneers as Qianlong M&P and I was very happy.

https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/29409592_1-chinese-porcelain-vase-qianlong-mark-and-period

I then discovered there is a similar shaped vase with the excact proportions but in a monochome blue color and with a white ribbon in stead of elephant handles and only 25 cm. high in the National Museum of Denmark here in Copenhagen where it is described as Qianlong period. And then a similar shaped was again listed at liveauctioneers where it was bid up to $240,000,000 (unpaid?).

https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/32284579_1-chinese-porcelain-vase-qianlong-mark-and-period

I was thrilled when I three years later came across a similar vase with Yongzheng marked vae with european subject decoration at the auctin.artxun.com- site (another Chinese auction summery-site) where it had an estimate at RMB 9,000,000 again at Macau CITIC Auctions. (The link I had has meanwhile gone blind and I only have the picture of it, attached below.)

And I thought it was very interesting that the enamels of that one seems identical to another european subject vase sold at Macau CITIC auctions for HKD 97,750,000, and also how the enamels partly matches with the similar shaped vase listed at liveautioneers (this was also one of the reasons I had to have the 'yancai gallbladder' vase that I posed in this forum)

https://read01.com/oEAxL0.html#.W3Kks9Izbcv

And then just a few days ago I finally came across another similar vase that was included in an exhibition with very rare and high value imperial pieces at Capital Museum in Beijing. I'll probably see if I can obtain the catalogue from that exhibtion to learn what museum that vase normally housed.

http://xxxf777888999.blog.163.com/blog/static/180098410201112810122131/

But It really is a shame if the pieces from Marchant auctions are all fakes, if that's your guys opinion. I had a post about my vase at the asianart.com-forum.

http://asianart.com/phpforum/index.php?method=detailAll&Id=83684

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Dear Corey,

I know you don’t like that I post in your threads. I know that what I say has no importance to you, but no problems. What is important to me is that anyone of us should honestly try to prevent not expert readers to be fooled by posts like this your last one.

So, if you do not want to listen as you have clearly shown up to now, do not listen, it’s your problem, not mine; but I hope that the beginners will listen. I highly suggest them to do so and I am addressing to them.

Anyone should keep in mind that the attribution of a Chinese piece to the proper period can’t be made by just looking at the enamels, the shape and the mark. These are only few of the details that can help in the attribution, and only must be considered after other parameters which are of capital importance, namely the style of the execution, and the “hand” of the maker.

Anyone should keep in mind that it is not possible that the owner of a vase like the one that has been sold at Liveuctioneer for 240,000 dollars (not 240,000,000), if genuine, will list it in that place, with a starting bid of 2 dollars. It is incredible that someone could bid a so large sum for an item, without even the picture of the base. Much better, crazy. That vase is a fake.

For matter of safety, I did look at the auction where that vase has been sold. I did look at the first 10 items and I stop, no worth to proceed. ALL fakes. A real shame.

Even the name of the auction is a tentative to fool the unwary bidders.

Be careful!!

Giovanni

But I think it's a little strange I haven't come across a similar vase with the relief decoration and the elephant handles, if  they truly are fakes. I have found a couple of 20th century copies like this one from our local auctioneer Lauritz.com.

https://www.lauritz.com/da/auktion/kinesisk-vase-hoej-elefant-hanke-lyseblaa-til-vurdering/i4683171/#

The one with the ribbon is being copied in China today (a found a site recent copies) and there are also 20th century copies. 

I think that it's interesting that one of the few vases with similar (almost identical) archaistic relief decoration is a soft paste vase from Sotheby's.

https://www.lauritz.com/da/auktion/kinesisk-vase-hoej-elefant-hanke-lyseblaa-til-vurdering/i4683171/#

Also because a couple of the soft paste vases listed at liveauctioneers are similar to Qianlong  vases sold at Sotheby's, for example these two:

https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/43618861_1-chinese-porcelain-vase-qianlong-mark-and-period

http://elogedelart.canalblog.com/archives/2010/10/16/19347207.html

And that another soft paste vase seems almost identical to one at the met:

https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/17770258_chinese-porcelain-vase-qianlong-mark-and-period

http://www.metmuseum.org/collection/the-collection-online/search/47783?rpp=30&pg=18&ft=qing+vase&pos=530  

Pictures of the 20th century vase from Lauritz.com attached below.

I don't mind that you are posting, Giovanni, it's just not always that I agree with you.   The 24ok vase was probably unpaid, since it was later listed on eBay.  is closing down, so I can't continue posting.

I don't mind that you are posting, Giovanni, it's just not always that I agree with you.   The 24ok vase was probably unpaid, since it was later listed on eBay.  is closing down, so I can't continue posting.

Computer was closing down, so I couldn't continue posting. And I don't have enough time left to write a longer message. I wish Peter Combs would comment on the marchant sales or the eBay antiques-maison sales. But if people here say that they are all fakes then it's perhaps not a good idea to send pictures of my vase to one of the major english auctioneers, as I had otherwise decided to do. The vase I have doesn't seem modern to me however. It's very correctly made with the mulitply layers of glaze and have age signs, mainly in the form of discoloration. I originally bought it for appreciation in the convenience that it's not modern, but 20th century, but in the hope it would be mark and period. But without provenance you are almost screwed. 

BTW have you guys noted that the footring of the softpaste vase listed at liveauctioneers looks different than the one at eBay. But now with the new system introduced by eBay I can't relocate the listing and the pictures.

But Giovanni, you're very welcome to comment in the thread where I posted a Xuande marked dragon jar that I consider is likely an authentic Xuande mark and period jar. At least that one I can have TL-tested. Only a few of the pictures are still available in the original listing though.

https://bidamount.com/the-bidamount-asian-art-forum/suspected-fakes-copies-being-sold/fake-xuande-underglaze-red-dragon-bowl-on-ebay

Corey, it is good to be open-minded and positive in life, I respect you for it. 

I just read in the other thread you linked to in the post above that you believe you have bought off ebay a Xuande mark and period jar worth upwards of $1 million (your words). We have all been there when we started out. You want to believe that you know what you're doing, that you haven't wasted money, that all the hours you've spent researching something have been worth it. You can't believe your luck, how did everyone miss this!?! But then you doubt yourself for a minute, maybe it is fake, that would explain why no one else wanted it. But then you do some more research and find something that looks vaguely similar. You only see what you want to see, so you pick out the one similarity but then ignore the differences. It is right! Oh my god I've bought an undiscovered treasure. You stare at it for hours, you can't believe it!

Believe me Corey, I've been there. I once spent £6,000 on what I believed to be a 15th Century Tibetan Buddha worth around £50,000!! I kept it for a few months until I built up the courage to take it into Sotheby's. I was very lucky because I paid for it on credit card and thanks to a lot of help from an expert at Sotheby's and my credit card company, I was able to get my money back.

All I'm saying is, just be careful. Like I say, it's great to be open minded and positive, but it's also that exact attitude from a buyer that makes the fakers and the fake merchants a lot of money. 

You clearly have a thirst for knowledge and a genuine interest in Chinese porcelain, which is great, it's exactly what you need. But don't be naive. Listen to what people like Giovanni are telling you. It may just save you a lot of money and heartache.

James

Dear James, thank you, but you made me bush, everyone of us can made mistakes.

Dear Corey, of course I am not in conditions of forming a precise idea about your dragon vase, based only on that picture; but I hardly believe that someone could do, without handling it, considering also the extreme rarity of such ware.

But this is for sure the typical case mentioned by James. It is hard to believe that the seller is listing a genuine Xuande vase that way, saying practically nothing.

With your permission I would like to come back to what I think you should most concentrate when trying to understand if a piece is genuine or not. In my opinion you concentrate your attention too much on details alone, often with attributions to period which are not always true.

For example, in that thread of your Dragon vase, you say: “…. you see the heaping an piling as well as the bubbles in the cobalt blue underglaze, that to me looks very authentic. 19th ct. copies shouldn't have this, should they.”

Look at the two pictures here below, both taken with the same enlargement, in two different areas of the same small celadon dish in Yaozhou style. According to the theory of the bubbles that some believe, these are showing what should be looked at: bubbles of different size, and with random, not uniform scattering.

Based on that, the dish should be genuine.

Instead, I acquired the dish from which those pictures I took, at the shop of the Shanghai Museum. A tourist grade object. This tells a lot about some theories.

Giovanni

PS: I know that sometime I use the word "fake" in not appropriate way, in place of "copy" instead. It is because in my personal view of seeing things, also a copy has no sense.