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I have been seeing these coming into the market by cargo containers full. They are all copies. This dragon is their favorite go to.
Mark is right, the bottom of the first vase just doesn’t look ok.
As to the second vase: I have never seen a fault like this. Would a faker intentionally produce it? What I don’t like about the vase is the dirty looking glaze above the upper double rim. It is usually a sign of a fake.
Birgit
Hi Bob -
Concur with Bitgit, Julia and Mark …
The Yongzheng marked dragon/phoenix temple vase is certainly not of the period, painting style, execution of the motifs and individual elements within such are far to stiff/placed and stereotyped, also the cobalt/glaze tones, trimming/finishing of the footrim/base and mark writing are all wrong - this has little age …
Unfortunately the same applies to Xuande marked meiping vase - which is vary far from early Ming, late Ming or Qing copies of such - again this has little age …
How/where did you acquire these two pieces …?!
Stuart
I learned recently that a Phoenix is a good tool for dating. Its not the only tool all expects of the vase must be looked at but the Phoenix head is a good tool. For some reason they are painted differently for most periods. A Phoenix with a long straight beak is not a good sign.
@imperialfinegems Mark your Yongzheng vase bottom has a rough crude look I hope I’m saying it right. But a bumpy look. I have seen this on many wares form many dynasties. It’s actually a look that I seek out for my personal collection it just has a authentic look. But I don’t see it on high value items which I’m trying to understand why some look this way and some don’t. It’s something modern forgery can’t duplicate. Like this plate much later has that texture.
Here is a vase in a museum in China of a Xuande period phoenix vase. Also a Xuande period garden stool from Christie’s.
Here is something that can’t be faked. I thought someone would catch it when I posted the pic earlier. Where the cobalt breaks the surface of the glaze it reflex’s a silver color. Only the cobalt from the Ming dynasty does this.
@somewhereintexas this is an opinion I disagree with. Everything can be faked and has been. Your going to have to learn about the flow it takes awhile but it comes you will understand when you see it this piece is missing that the flow.
@somewhereintexas we need to see a piece in its entirety. Not one aspect tells everything. I’m not expert in Ming wares just experienced in a few things. I can tell a really bad one but a really good one could go both ways. Pictures only give us limited information. We need top and bottom edges angles etc it helps. If you believe you have authentic pieces I would strongly suggest getting expert opinion Peter charges $12 worth the opinion.
Hi Bob -
The phoenix meiping you cite above was recovered from a princely tomb, alone with another decorated with a five-clawed dragon - images attached. Both pieces now held in the Hebei Provincial Museum, and were exhibited most recently at Shanghai in 2019 as part of there ‘Lustre Revealed’ - Jingdezhen Porcelain Wares in Mid 15th Century China’ - last two images. They are now attributed to Zhengtong, so 1436-1449, and not Xuande period ...
Such vase were commissioned as burial objects placed within the tomb to accompany the decease in the after life so, although decorated with Imperial type dragons/phoenixes, they are not Imperial quality and would not have been presented at court ...
Look closely at the way the phoenixes are drawn, full of life and movement. Note the tails elementals, both totally different to each other, which are seen/used on early Ming Imperial wares to depict the Feng (male) and Huang (female) phoenixes ...
The drawing on this meiping bares absolutely no resemblance, in anyway, to those on your vase ...
A correction also:- Quality control at the Imperial kilns was exceptionally rigorous throughout the early/mid Ming. Any piece that failed, for whatever reason, was immediately smashed/buried within the Imperial kiln site and would not, in any circumstance, have been ‘sold to the people’ ...
In the late Ming, rejected, misfired and lesser quality items were not destroyed/buried but stored at the Factory depot in Jingdezhen. This practice continued in the early Qing, and it was only after Tang Ying assumed duty as resident Manger in the 6th year of Yongzheng (1728) that the rejects were sent, along with good examples, to be given away as bestowal gifts by the Emperor or sold in the capital. Then in 1742, the Qianlong Emperor issued an edict ordering Tang Ying to sell the rejects locally and not to send such wares to the Capital ...
Stuart
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