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The BidAmount Asian Art Forum | Chinese Art

The Chinese and Asian Art Forum. For Fans, Collectors and Dealers.


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Chinese Rose Mandarin Bough Pot.

 
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 Paula G
(@opal26)
Estimable Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 210
Topic starter 07/03/2021 9:12 pm  

For some reason I don't have a photo of this in its entirety but though some detail photos would be appreciated.  I think that this is from late 19th century.

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Adams Asian Art
 Adams Asian Art
(@imperialfinegems)
Mark Adams
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 7025
07/03/2021 10:23 pm  

@opal26,

Hi Paula, 

Do not buy this. It's a late 20th century vase. 1980'S. 

Mark 


   
Ming1449, Sharon P, Julia and 2 people reacted
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 Paula G
(@opal26)
Estimable Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 210
Topic starter 07/03/2021 10:34 pm  

@imperialfinegems

Thanks, I had thought it might be pre contemporary but knew it would not be any earlier than very late 19th century.  I already own this.  I bought it more for "It's pretty" and it being a bough pot than for any monetary value.  It does display nicely.  So there is that advantage.  

PS.  Is it the detail of the butterfly and birds (rather lacking in color) that dates this piece as being contemporary.  Do you find the tinier florals as being a bit flat looking?   Just curious what details are a give away.


   
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Adams Asian Art
 Adams Asian Art
(@imperialfinegems)
Mark Adams
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 7025
07/03/2021 10:43 pm  

@opal26,

Primarily the stiffness of the artwork. The pink is not shaded at all. The gilt is paint. The mark is a common/known example.

Other than that I am sure it presents well. 

Mark 


   
Ming1449, Sharon P, Julia and 1 people reacted
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 Paula G
(@opal26)
Estimable Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 210
Topic starter 07/03/2021 11:00 pm  

@imperialfinegems

I am trying to train my eye so I don't stumble too often.  I know the way a piece feels is also important but one can't use that deciding on online purchases.  I went through a stage of buying famille rose pieces most of which I can now see is rather pedestrian.  But they do serve to educate by bad example.

I've had very little exposure to high quality antique Chinese works.  I have handled/seen pieces of Kang Hsi porcelain from the 1715 fleet.  But that was many years ago when a friend of my late hubs was working for Mel Fisher and would bring by finds for us to see.  I wish I had some of those shards or others as a learning tool.


   
Sharon P and Julia reacted
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Adams Asian Art
 Adams Asian Art
(@imperialfinegems)
Mark Adams
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 7025
07/03/2021 11:11 pm  

@opal26,

It's something that takes dedication and time to learn. 

Good reference books, auction catalogs (we have them here BTW), auction houses like sotheby's and museums.

It's not easy. But with time and experience you will get there. 😊

Mark 


   
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 Paula G
(@opal26)
Estimable Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 210
Topic starter 07/03/2021 11:14 pm  

@imperialfinegems

I do have quite a few books/catalogues.  I still wish I was nearer to being able to view actual pieces.  So help from those who have such experience is very welcome.


   
Sharon P and Adams Asian Art reacted
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Shinigami
 Shinigami
(@shinigami)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 4846
08/03/2021 2:22 am  

Look at the floor tiles, they are absolutely even and most probably printed. They should be hand painted. Also the general appearance of the colors is „softer“ than on the authentic pieces. And the gold used is modern and shiny, not the muted 19th century gold. 

Birgit


   
Ang P, Ming1449, Sharon P and 3 people reacted
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 Paula G
(@opal26)
Estimable Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 210
Topic starter 08/03/2021 2:29 am  

@shinigami

Those pointers are exactly what I need to help develop a more discerning eye.  Thanks!


   
Sharon P and Adams Asian Art reacted
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clayandbrush
 clayandbrush
(@clayandbrush)
Famed Member
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 1611
08/03/2021 1:09 pm  

Dear Paula,

look at just this detail (from one of the few pictures that are focused): the contour lines are clearly printed and not hand made.

This is the first step that you should learn how to recognize. Look at them: constant, even width, no beginning and no end of the strokes. Some broken lines.

When you see this, run away!

Regards,

Giovanni

36571 009

   
Ming1449, Shinigami, Julia and 2 people reacted
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 Paula G
(@opal26)
Estimable Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 210
Topic starter 08/03/2021 1:54 pm  

@clayandbrush

Thanks.  Is what you showed me an indication that this was mass produced with somebody outlining the images and any number of people filling in the colors? Or does it mean the whole of it is printed?  I can recognize transfer printing on European and English pieces but it seems a bit trickier with Asian pieces. 

I see what is meant about the colors as Shinigami wrote above.  To me it is almost as if this is a piece that was made to look like what an inexperienced buyer expects a piece of antique Chinese porcelain to look.  It is easy to forget just how bright and vibrant colors are on antique items.  We are used to seeing faded example and think that is right. 


   
Shinigami and Sharon P reacted
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Steve
 Steve
(@steve)
Famed Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 1771
08/03/2021 5:43 pm  

@opal26

Hi Paula,

Thanks for sharing this. I love Rose Medallion, so it's always fun to compare and explore - and also to know what to look out for. 

I've noticed that in more modern examples they break from the typical "script" of the pattern and include things - like the black lines on the floor - that were never really done like that in the 19th century.

Here are some close ups of a mid 19th c. example. Note that whatever contour lines are not harsh and that many areas of color have no outlining; the groups of figures look a little mushy and impish, not clear and evenly outlined. The clothing folds are suggested by piling of the enamel rather than lines, etc. The good examples seem to vibrate with color and beauty, the poorer examples look a little messy and rushed.

Screen Shot 2021 03 08 at 1.36.52 PM
Screen Shot 2021 03 08 at 1.36.41 PM

 


   
Ang P, Shinigami, Sharon P and 1 people reacted
ReplyQuote
 Paula G
(@opal26)
Estimable Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 210
Topic starter 08/03/2021 6:32 pm  

Thanks.  I love the education I am getting here.  So does my pocketbook.


   
ReplyQuote
 Paula G
(@opal26)
Estimable Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 210
Topic starter 08/03/2021 6:42 pm  

@steve

I have some other pieces which I hope are better examples.   I hope others will chime in.

antique rose medallion plate pair 47.99
antique rose medallion plate pair back
ANTIQUE EARLY FAMILLE ROSE PLATES 12.52
ANTIQUE EARLY FAMILLE ROSE PLATES STAMP

 


   
Steve reacted
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Steve
 Steve
(@steve)
Famed Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 1771
08/03/2021 6:51 pm  

@opal26

Nice! 

The first plate reminds me of some 1930s examples I've handled, although they are usually marked. This could be from the 1880s. 

The second example is probably late 20th c. in my opinion. 


   
Paula G reacted
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