Posted by: Shine

Thanks for replying so quickly and honestly.

My personal opinion is that it is a copy (I'm being polite) and lacks the colour and intensity of original Yongzheng bright enamels. The lack of a blue and the weak yellow as well as its perfect condition lead me to this conclusion.

The faces are a worry though as they look good.

As I said,it will sell so someone else's problem (or not) further down the road.

Vic

I offer you the same deal to let Peter take a look and for a refund from me if he also says it is fake. Pls keep me posted.

Hi Vic,

I know that you have enough knowledge for judging this as being a fake instantly.

I suspect that you are mixing images. We are talking about the dish that it is shown in the first post, and only there. And compare witht he others.

Look at the details that I have mentioned, the mottled glaze on the base, the dress, the rocks, the faces. Look in particular at the group of rocks in the forehand. It is not matter of slight difference there due to two different contemporary hands. It is matter of a couple of centuries different hands.

Regards

Giovanni

Posted by: clayandbrush

Hi Vic,

I know that you have enough knowledge for judging this as being a fake instantly.

I suspect that you are mixing images. We are talking about the dish that it is shown in the first post, and only there. And compare witht he others.

Look at the details that I have mentioned, the mottled glaze on the base, the dress, the rocks, the faces. Look in particular at the group of rocks in the forehand. It is not matter of slight difference there due to two different contemporary hands. It is matter of a couple of centuries different hands.

Regards

Giovanni

 

Peter always says you are his friend. He might look at it free of charge if you send him an email. I am curious to know what he thinks. 

As for me, I still think it is a legit 18th plate. That is why I sell it. I don't sell anything fake to any one. 

I am not saying that you are selling fakes purposely. I gave an honest warning.

But it is absurd that you ask others to ask Peter. The plate is yours, the decisions are yours.

Good luck

Giovanni

Posted by: clayandbrush

I am not saying that you are selling fakes purposely. I gave an honest warning.

But it is absurd that you ask others to ask Peter. The plate is yours, the decisions are yours.

Good luck

Giovanni

 

Because I trust Peter and I don't trust you. lol I don't need to spend money asking Peter bc I know my plate is not fake. If you want to defend your opinion and PROVE it to me then you should ask him instead of me. And I offer to pay you back in case he charges you. No cost to you since you are correct, right?!?! 

Hi Giovanni,

Yes I was discussing the first one,concentrating on the enamels as the give away (in my opinion) but for sure there are other clues.

Personally Kodousa  the piece is yours to sell,I simply commented as you brought it to the board.

Also,Giovanni has forgotten more than I have ever learned so my advice to you is listen to him,his words are not said with malice and are true.

Vic

Dear Kodousa -

I would concur for Giovanni and Vic ...

Look at the element details and overall painting style between your piece and the one posted by Short Dong - the differences are obvious ...

Stuart

Posted by: KODOUSA

Posted by: clayandbrush

I am not saying that you are selling fakes purposely. I gave an honest warning.

But it is absurd that you ask others to ask Peter. The plate is yours, the decisions are yours.

Good luck

Giovanni

 

Because I trust Peter and I don't trust you. lol I don't need to spend money asking Peter bc I know my plate is not fake. If you want to defend your opinion and PROVE it to me then you should ask him instead of me. And I offer to pay you back in case he charges you. No cost to you since you are correct, right?!?! 

I confess that that "LOL" di hurt me a bit. Being provoked, I did check the whole situation more in deep, following also an hint provided by Vic in one of his previous posts here.

Well, I must say that I did post here with the intention of giving suggestion to someone who I supposed to be honest. There are evidences, after some check, that my supposition was not correct.

Giovanni

Hi OP

I was not aware this was a plate in your possession. My apologies if you were offended. I am a novice in asian art and my opinions are usually just my impressions.  Try not to take criticisms personally, because if something is lacking the art and skill of the origional it will be vulnerable to criticism.  I have no serious opinion to the authenticity or age of your plate but i did have the immediate impression that it was an inferior copy of the original. There was no symmetry or interaction between the figures and their expressions and it seemed like a clumsy copy of their expressions as evident by the rider on the horse whom has the same identical pose as the origional where he lifts his hand to imitate the original, the meaning was for the rider to contain his mirth as he tries not to openly mock the obvious humour of the  man who has to carry a fellow on his back. However the origional justifies this pose by having the riders hold his reins which also brings distinction to the fact he is on a horse. This subtlety is completely missed in your plate where there is no rein in his hand making the copy seem clumsy and thoughtless.  

Has anyone got an opinion on the Orange Peel

Note: Peter comments about orange peel at 3 minutes 23 seconds.

He is describing the orange peel on a qianjiang Vase and describes the wide orange peel texture and then mentions that orange peel is faked or artificial it tends to have far too much orange peel,  verbatim: 'way too bumpy'.

I’ve just checked some pieces and note that Orange Peel texture appears on a few late 18th c  Armorial blue and white Plates.

It can be more seen when viewed across the glaze and can also be felt as a light ripple (just checked) but I believe that it is a later 18th c reinvention and shouldn’t be there on Yongzheng period pieces.

More thoughts welcome.

Vic

The Gotheborg glossary about orange peel:

The Chinese term for orange peel is "ju-pi" (chu-p'i). "Orange peel" or "chicken skin" refers to the same glaze appearance and were named thus because the surface of the glaze resembled the texture of an orange peel or a chicken skin. This phenomenon occurs on Ge and some Guan wares as far back as the Song period. It also occurs on many Ming monochromes as well, particularly sacrificial red or blue. It became a deliberate design element during the Yongzheng and Qianlong periods seen mostly on monochromes (i.e. many copper red items) but did occur on other types as well.

Dear ShortDong,

be sure he is not offended.

He has seven listings now in auction format. Have a look at the many biddings he already has. In ALL them, and I stress ALL them, the biddings are pushed up by the SAME three bidders, who has 100%, 88% etc biddings with him.

This guy is largely abusing of shill biddings, and this explain many things about his behaviour. His auction should be banned from Bidamount; fake item and on top of that shill biddings from an arrogant guy.

Regards

Giovanni

Hi Giovanni

I can concur,  I inspected the bidding activity and i can confirm i have noticed the same bidding pattern from those same 3 bidders. They are also present in the sold lots, and in some cases the shill has won the auction!

What do you make of the authenticity of his items. 

Regards

SD

Vic, I was surprised to see it on the back of a Yongzheng plate.  I accept that it does occur in the 18th c but I have not seen it on this ind of piece and wouldn't expect it. I would also agree that Yongzheng enamels tend to be bright and beautiful and this doesn't live up to that.

I wasn't sure it was necessarily a fake, which is why I asked if it might be a price/quality issue.  Might it be a much later 18th c version?

Dear Julia,

the glaze on the base of this type of ware is very typical, I have never seen that glaze on a Yongzheng plate.

It can’t be late 18^th century. Yongzheng has his own style, and after it, as you know, there is Qianlong that also has his own style. This is trying to copy Yongzheng, hence not Qianlong.

Dear ShortDong, no comments about the other things that he is selling. I am sorry of having been so direct in accusing him and apologize to the other members, but I was upset by the fact that he was making fun of all us, and by the obvious shill bids. He thinks he is smartest than others.

This is further supporting my idea about sellers who has many biddings early. I said this many times. To me, it is always suspicious. Especially for expensive items, it is totally unthinkable that someone places a bid of let say some hundred dollars days before the end of the auction.

Regards

Giovanni