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Sotheby's New York is selling this stuff. Why?
https://www.sothebys.com/en/buy/_yuan-style-vase-23f5
And this
https://www.sothebys.com/en/buy/_chinese-glazed-cong-vase-7594
And this
https://www.sothebys.com/en/buy/_chinese-doucai-meiping-vase-d70c
www.wyssemaria-art.com
[email protected]
Curioser and curioser, it's an Alice in Wonderland world of Chinese ceramics.
It seems like lately the most recent works are being pushed into greater appreciation and higher value. Perhaps this is due to the ever expanding market. More people collecting Chinese antiques means more need for desirable items, so the standards loosen a bit to accommodate the greater numbers. And/or, maybe it is a way for the reputable collecting/dealing world to try and control the fake market by co-opting it, something akin to a government legalizing a a previously illegal drug, in hopes they can control it better through regulation and then gather some of the profits as well. Just some thoughts that may or may not have to do with what is actually going on. John
Dear Xin,
what a shame. Sotheby's on the same level of the low-level eBay stuffs. Really, what a shame.
And they even have the face to refuse genuine items becasue they are "below Sotheby' standards". Standards? Which standards, these ones? What a shame.
Giovanni
If an expert at Sotheby’s or Christie’s hedge their bets and start pushing ‘style’ then they have really sold their souls to the devil.
Where is the expertise if everything has to have ‘provenance’’ rather than evaluation by an in house expert ?
A game with genuine items on the outside while their own chosen ones can list ‘style’ and genuine pieces get rejected for spurious reasons.
Vic
While there were some disagreements on the authenticity of the last batch of '20th c.' porcelains sold by Sotheby's, it appears that (as predicted) we have now entered the explicit sale of reproductions for solely the purpose of profiting off of some unfortunate buyer who is swayed into thinking there is value in these modern fakes.
To protect the integrity and value of collecting genuine porcelains, this has to stop.
Perhaps a bit petty of me to say it, but I TOLD YOU SO!
From my understanding this is a offshoot of sorts from sothebyshome. Where modern items are regularly available along with watches etc etc.
These are consigned by dealers to them who would normally not be good enough for auction in the majority of cases etc.
Or am I missing something here?
Mark
@imperialfinegems Mark, I'm sure you're right about the format that these vases are being sold. However, you still wouldn't expect to see them selling a museum poster of a Picasso for $750 would you? Why should it be any different for Chinese porcelains?
Wheter intended or not, their brand adds a false sense of legitamacy to what should be widely accepted as tourist objects.
Yes, not everyone can afford a real underglaze red dragon Yuan pear vase, so a copy seems a logical option (that's why own copies). However, there is no place for Sotheby's or any other high end auction selling fakes. It just further blurs the lines for future growth in this field of study.
I'm reminded of any number of well known artists that have sold the rights (or had them stolen) of their artwork to companies that produce reproductions by the 10,000's. The abundance of these cheap copies creates an environment where buyers are so immunized to the fakes, that they don't really worry about whether or not the piece is real or fake, just as long as it's cheap and looks like the real thing.
Can you say, Louis Vuitton hand bags?
It's rather sad so see this turn of events.
@greeno107 Just for further discussion sake, I wonder if this trend could actually end up being a good thing by creating even more demand for older objects? Because if a late 20th C copy starts substantially increasing in value, then wouldn't that raise the value of older items in response and thereby boost the market for the objects we all collect?
I suppose there is always the chance that Sotheby's think this is the correct way to procede with these items? Sell them at a reasonable price, make no claims as to originality ie call them what they are and have a record of that to prevent them being marketed as genuine in the future.
There is no doubt that copies can be beautiful, especially those with no fake ageing. The idea that something has been deliberately to deceive, to trick people out of money, is an issue obviously, but some pieces that are copies are lovely in their own right and they are going to have a market, especially once they are vintage, maybe it is best to get in early and regulate it?
I am not saying that is the correct thing to do, but these pieces exist, they are going to be sold on and of course, that provides a business opportunity for auction houses. I think we will be seeing more of it.
@johnshoe If they are looking to promote a new generation of collectors at a lower price point, they could do other things...
A- Sell less expensive genuine pieces (non mark & period)
B- Sell pieces by modern/contemporary artists
C- Insist that the modern copies be permanently marked / engraved
@julia is absolutely correct! The vase is going to get a Sotheby's catalog label and the sale amount will be recorded online. Every 'joe blow' is going to use the result as a way to justify their ridiculous piece of junk as a valuable 'heirloom'.
This field of study is complicated to say the least, and there are already too many fakes crowding the field.
This is about greed, and perhaps about satisfying the needs of a wealthy client who needs to unload their collection of fakes.
Tim, yes, maybe modern pieces that could pass for antique originals should be marked.
Of course, there have always been copies for whatever reason, eg kangxi revival, which are now bought and sold as antiques. That being the case, I find it a difficult thing to pronounce upon in an absolute way.
What I would like is for people to be educated enough on art to be able to make informed choices, but I doubt that is going to happen, not least because possibly many people can't really be bothered or have enough interest.
@julia I agree, but the subject of what counts as 'revival' (which we've touched on in previous discussions) has been left unresolved.
Are we in a 'revival' period for Yuan porcelains? I hardly think so.
We are in a period of tremendous appreciation of Chinese art & antiquity.... is that enought to count as a 'revival'? I still don't think so...too broad.
Where are we? Honestly, I think we're in a bubble, not unlike a real estate bubble.
I think an idea for a reality TV show might be.... Flip This Vase! Contestants can buy fake vases...pair them up with genuine vases to push their close proximity in appearance, and sell them at Sotheby's! The contestant with the highest sale price wins!
Of course, we all know what happens with bubbles, and the downfall damages everything...the good and the bad.
Fortunately, as it was true for real estate, if you buy quality, your investment will keep its value.
I never meant to imply it was easy, just complicated, as you point out. 😊 The fact remains that there are a lot of very nicely done copies (I am being generous of course as many are intended to deceive) that will be sold and resold - short of their being destroyed, which isn't going to happen - money will be lost and made. Some time in the not too far future, the era of these second-half 20th c porcelains will have a name and they will probably get a life of their own.
I don't see how that can be stopped and rightly or wrongly, Sotheby's is getting in on that now by lending them some kind of legitimacy.
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Kangxi vases, Kangxi dishes and chargers, Kangxi ritual pieces, Kangxi scholar's objects, Qianlong famille rose, Qianlong enamels, Qianlong period paintings, Qianlong Emporer's court, Fine porcelain of the Yongzheng period. Chinese imperial art, Ming porcelain including Jiajing, Wanli, Xuande, Chenghua as well as Ming jades and bronzes.
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