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Hello All:
Thanks for the kind comments. I think the second plate has an unusual pattern for a Chinese plate. The third plate (bottom row) has a relatively common pattern. The feature that I find most interesting about it is that there are white or off-white flowers contained in the somewhat whiter negative space. As to the first plate, I had been puzzled by the decoration. This particular thread has now revealed why it is different and that is what makes the Forum an asset to collectors.
Best regards,
Errol
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Dear Erroll,
the white decoration over the white background that we see on your Yongzheng plate is universally known with an Italian term: bianco-sopra-bianco (just "white-on-white").
Giovanni
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@clayandbrush  As someone still new to this I am getting more interested in the differences between adjacent reigns such as the difference between Qianlong and Yongzheng which seems like a fairly advanced detail to be able to distinguish between. If you have any specific suggestions for learning the nuances between those two reigns I would love to hear them. Cheers! John
Dear Giovanni:
You are a wonderful source of fascinating information!
Regards,
Errol
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Well you will learn that Giovanni plays his cards close to the vest so as not to give the fakers more information, sometimes you have to rely on broad hints and what is not said. His information is always interesting, it gets to be more like a poker game all the time.
Dear Sharon,
you are very right about the disclosure of some things, thank you😊.
Dear John, in this case, it is not matter of giving informations to the fakers, because they know the following very well. It is matter of completely different motifs, styles and enamels too.
Compare the pink of the flowers of the Yongzheng plate with the pink of the Qianlong one. There is a big difference. The same must be said for the greens.
The use of the bianco-sopra-bianco is more common during Yongzheng. The elaborate outer border of the Yongzheng plate is typical of the period, as is the Floeur de Lys border around the bottom typical of the Qianlong period.
All what you have to do is to look at surely attributed pieces of different periods on books, museums and other reliable sources, after a while the differences will be evident.
Regards,
Giovanni
@clayandbrush Giovanni, thank you for the information. I think I am beginning to see the flower difference. Just as a further example and for more clarification, would this one be a Yongzheng?
Just after that😊
@clayandbrush Hello Giovanni, could this pieces have a similar story, made in China, painted in Europe ?
Kind Regards
Michael
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By the way, this is my bowl and saucer of the type we are discusting, 10 euro on catawiki.
Michael
Michael, I think the first two might be English in the popular Asiatic pheasant pattern. I may be wrong.
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Hello Julia:
I think you are correct and that these are English. My experience with dishes has been that while the Chinese during Imperial times made a huge number of different patterns they tended to repeat certain elements. So, when one looks at a dish, for example, it is usually possible to recognize it at least as Chinese. In the one dish Michael presented, the attempt at the gilt border around the cavetto looks wrong for a Chinese plate. It has more of a mustard color and the individual elements are not properly shaped. The birds too look different from those one usually sees in Chinese porcelains. There also appear to be roses in the dish and I don't often see roses in Chinese porcelains. So, I think this is what is often called Chinoiserie and it is probably English too.Â
Regards.
Errol
Thanks, Errol. I think the actual items were made in England, too. I have sold several of them by various manufacturers; some are marked, some aren't. I think Spode/Copeland produced a variant so it might be easy to look it up with their name.
The Indian Tree is another similar English chinoiserie pattern. I think they are both very attractive designs.
Michael, your other items were a bargain for 10 euros! I like them, too.
Thank you for the help ! I think i found them as Spode 19th century. Thanks Julia ! The QIANLONG examples, painted in Europe I got from the news letter 1 and a half years ago, probably nobody believed them to be Chinese and me as a begginer in the porcelain fever, left a winning bid of 9 euro. Shipping was 20 euro :))
Kind regards
Michael
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