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Nabeshima Meiji period. Mistake?

 
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RAHawk
 RAHawk
(@rahawkins)
Noble Member
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 742
Topic starter 02/10/2022 4:16 pm  

I just bought this.  I wasnt expecting to win, but looking deeper into it, the quality is definitely subpar.  Is Nabeshima porcelain quality discrepant like this? Is it a revival of an older pattern? 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/134245257346?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=zmk6uZGWRq2&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=kma4b6xatow&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

This similar dish is better quality, and makes me think I just bought a copy:

https://orientalceramics.com/product/nabeshima-type-c-1880-1910-japanese-porcelain/


   
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Shine
 Shine
(@shine)
Noble Member
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 871
02/10/2022 6:21 pm  

It isn’t Nabeshima but also buyers remorse isn’t acceptable either.

I respect both you and the seller and had to think hard before posting this.

Vic


   
Adams Asian Art, Jeremy Beer, Sharon P and 1 people reacted
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RAHawk
 RAHawk
(@rahawkins)
Noble Member
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 742
Topic starter 02/10/2022 6:22 pm  

@shine Im going to talk to them about it. I follow their auctions pretty often, and they usually id stuff correctly.


   
Jeremy Beer and Sharon P reacted
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 DannD
(@fuantiques)
Estimable Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 87
03/10/2022 10:59 am  

Hi,

Did you notice that the size is also different? Robert's dish is 21.2 cm dia and the Ebay one is 14.8cm. Does that matter? I can't imagine being smaller it would effect the quality of the design but I can definitely see what you are talking about. What are your thoughts? Later, Modern or Chinese copy? I would love to hear the sellers thoughts also on the plate.


   
Sharon P, RAHawk and Jeremy Beer reacted
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 Julia
(@julia)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 7233
03/10/2022 1:31 pm  

Robert McPherson isn't certain his is Nabeshima. Do you think that is because of the base design being slightly off or does that happen?

 


   
Sharon P, Ming1449, Jeremy Beer and 1 people reacted
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Sharon P
 Sharon P
(@sharonp)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 4506
03/10/2022 4:07 pm  

@julia Just looked again, you're correct his listing says "Nebishima Type," I suppose different size and different photos could explain the difference in appearance?


   
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Adams Asian Art
 Adams Asian Art
(@imperialfinegems)
Mark Adams
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 7021
03/10/2022 4:15 pm  

@rahawkins,

My personal feeling is that it's not a Meji example but a much later attribute of sorts.

The overall design appears to differ rather poorly from the one cited in the book. The footrim border for one, is poorly painted.

The guys at Shangri-la are very professional and if it's not genuine then it's not deliberately done. Everybody makes mistakes. 

Nabeshima styled arita ware is still being made today.

I would be most interested in what the guys say about it.

Mark 


   
Jeremy Beer, Julia, Sharon P and 1 people reacted
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RAHawk
 RAHawk
(@rahawkins)
Noble Member
Joined: 3 years ago
Posts: 742
Topic starter 03/10/2022 4:19 pm  

@imperialfinegems

 

...they gave me a cancel.  I think they offer returns through ebay anyway.


   
Jeremy Beer, Julia, Sharon P and 1 people reacted
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avatar
 avatar
(@avatar)
Noble Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 1427
04/10/2022 3:45 am  

It's a Nabeshima plate of the Meiji period copying a Nabeshima plate of the Edo period. It's the last one that is valuable. 


   
RAHawk and Shine reacted
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avatar
 avatar
(@avatar)
Noble Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 1427
04/10/2022 3:48 am  

This is the Nabeshima plate decorated with a similar pattern that would be valuable.

 

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/52344


   
Sharon P, RAHawk and Julia reacted
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Shine
 Shine
(@shine)
Noble Member
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 871
04/10/2022 4:33 am  

@avatar Sorry,you are misguided. It is a much later plate copying the Nabeshima style and not Nabeshima.

Look at the poor quality of the foot,the detached Cashcoin which is running away from the others in shame !

Also just 5 Jars so totally off point.

 

Vic

 

P.s my thumbs up of your post is actually a thumbs down.


   
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 Julia
(@julia)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 7233
04/10/2022 7:29 am  

Looking at the Met Museum example, I think there can be little doubt that both the Shangri-la and McPherson dishes are copies.  It's a very useful comparison.


   
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Shine
 Shine
(@shine)
Noble Member
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 871
04/10/2022 8:48 am  

As a comparison,this is an early piece of Koransha,early Meiji,wholly hand painted.

It is their interpretation of a combed foot and extremely skillfully done.

The underplate floral decoration also echoes Nabeshima.

The first plate on this thread I would simply say is Nabeshima type.

Mr McPhersons Plate I would say IS Nabeshima,but I understand the hesitation he uses and why he calls it Nabeshima type.

DBE60B73 42C2 45B1 B190 3077648493C5
AF484784 75A2 4518 BEC7 C49C7B3A1C30
9B1C074A D523 4EE7 86CE ABE5D14552DA
66379176 101D 49E1 A69A 265BBD4585F0
7FBDA562 0968 471B BB47 6CCE15D1A0C1

   
Jeremy Beer reacted
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 Julia
(@julia)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 7233
04/10/2022 9:07 am  

So following on from my earlier post, it is ok to see a messed up base pattern on Nabeshima?  


   
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Adams Asian Art
 Adams Asian Art
(@imperialfinegems)
Mark Adams
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 7021
04/10/2022 9:20 am  

@avatar,

Why do you think that this Koransha piece is early Mejia period and not later?

Mark 


   
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