@tam18 

Hi Tam - 

Would totally agree, but who ever inform this dealer it was 18thC, when it clear does not correspond to any 18thC style, and why they did not make additional enquires I do not know so can not comment on. I would only add that the majority of objects in the gallery were Arabic, Asian pieces been relative few - perhaps 10/15% of displayed stock ...

As to the glaze pools/runs to the interior rim, burst bubbles/pulls to the mouth-rim edge and flakes/looses to the baseline, this was probably due to some fault in the glaze recipe, as mentioned above. Such features are uncommon, but not unknown, on such early 16thC minyao kiln wares ... 

I would, of course, welcome any/all comments/thoughts from Giovanni, Peter or anyone else regarding this guan ... 

Stuart 

@hughmilne 

Hi Hugh - 

My pleasure ... 

I do not know your level of expertise or experience regarding Ming wares so it is my turn to apologies if the following cause any offence, non is inferred or intended ...

I can only say that first and foremost, as has been mentioned numerous times by other members here, gaining recognition and knowledge of painting styles is of paramount importance when looking at objects from any period. If one can acquire such, then the alterations and progression of motif drawings and, to a lesser extent, the combinations of these, through differing periods is critical when first seeing a piece, whether produced in the Imperial workshop or in private/minyao kilns ...

Everything else, including shape/form, size, glaze, base and mark, if any, is secondary ... 

Stuart 

@hughmilne

Hello Hugh,

Welcome to the forum!

You've no doubt watched Combs' video from a couple of weeks ago about Ming and Qing foot rims? If not, a great place to start.

-Steve

@ming1449
Hi Stuart,

No need for apologies as we have very little idea of each other’s experience. 
The painting style for your piece indeed is correct for the period. By that time they had moved from the caligraphic style of decoration, and instead painted fine lines that were then filled in with a wash. I personally would be cautious though of just regarding only a single element of a piece. For myself to be happy with a piece I need to consider paste, glaze, decoration and foot. 
Regarding my previous question I was wondering if you had any references for that flat foot from that period on a Guan jar. I’ve seen a flat foot on small jars and jarlets but have no references on the larger pieces so if you have any I’d be very grateful.

very best regards,

Hugh

@steve

Hi Steve,

Thank you for the welcome.

Indeed, I’ve watched all of Peters videos, and have been slowly building a library of reference books. 
I’ve, so far, been studying Qing, Ming and Yuan periods and have just started studying the Song period. It’s a continuous and never ending journey. 

All the best,

Hugh.

@hughmilne

Hi Hugh,

Yes, there is a lot of history, isn't there? I'm slowly beginning to understand why pottery is so important to Chinese history, with the links to the Silk Road and how the use of these products improved the lives of not just the buyers of export goods but the Chinese people themselves. I was thinking the other day about how in ancient times such sophisticated pottery was crucial in storing grain and food, reducing spoilage, famine and loss to rodents etc. 

I indulged myself last week and ordered a copy of 2010 Chinese Ceramics book from Yale (I found one for just under $150). It just arrived on Friday and have been having fun perusing it. The other big book I have (and love) is the English translation of Beurdeley's "Connoisseure's guide to Chinese Ceramics" from the early 70s(?). A great reference. 

Regards,

Steve

@steve

Hi Steve,

There are some great resources out there aren’t there!

Im not sure where you’re located but I’ve just discovered loads of archive film of China from the first half of the 20th C that is free to view in the UK. Search for the British Film Institute archive, we’ll worth it. I’m finding it personally fascinating as my grandmother grew up in Shanghai during the 1920’s, her father was the editor of the North Daily China News, and I’m seeing footage of things she described in her memoirs. 
All the best,

Hugh.

@hughmilne

I'm in the U.S. but I'll look for it. Thank you!

@hugemilne - 

Hi Huge -

In 2017 the Gugong held an exhibition entitled 'Imperial Porcelains from the reign of Hongzhi and Zhengde in the Ming Dynasty' one of an ongoing series of exhibitions,now finished, where they compared reconstructed examples unearthed from the Imperial kiln site and intact pieces held in the Palace Museum. There were also a few pieces produced in the private/minyao kilns exhibited, the similar but not identical Guan cited above was one such piece, now held in their collection ...

Two volume exhibition catalogue, ISBN Reference: No 978-7-5134-1019-9, has very high quality images of all objects, most including bases. The few large wares from these two reigns exhibit bases with both flat and broad, but shallow, foot-rims, and are an excellent visual reference for such wares. The publication is, however, rather expensive ...

My apologies but due to ongoing technical website issues effecting some forum members, I can not attached additional images to my posts presently, so are unable to include images of these differing base types here ...

Hope this is of some help to your previous question posed ...

Stuart 

Hi, very nice jar!

In respond to tam's comment, the fact that it was wrongly described as  18th century by a London antique dealer doesn't prove the jar is modern. I've personally seen chinese antiques purchased from  a reputable antique dealer and later re-sold at auction for 100x the original asking price. This might happen more often than you think.

@ming1449

Hi Stuart,

Thanks for the reference. I’ve made a note and I’ll see if I can locate some images from my end. If the site problem gets fixed then anything you can send would be great. Your right, I find good reference books on the Ming period are very expensive. So much porcelain was produced during that dynasty for both domestic, export and quality markets. There’s still more we are all learning with new archaeological work continuing in China.

best regards,

Hugh

@hughmilne 

Hi Hugh - 

Re foot/bases:- Following on from our exchanges on this I contacted my restorer who, fortunately, has yet to move the guan to his studio ... 

He kindly took/forwarded two images (which, strangely given past issues, have attached to this thread?!). I also asked him to describe it as accurately as possible and he passed on the following :- (Pretty sure he thinks I’am slightly unstable for questioning him on such!!) ...

“The base edges are irregular finished/trimmed, probably more the once, there is no actual foot-ring as such but the base is slightly recessed and this seems to provide a ‘natural’ but rather irregular area which the piece sits on,  which can be seen in the slightly cleaner outer base areas. The base exhibits close concentric circles (very faint), numerous large/medium and small pits and one very small area of glaze, which is very rough when touched due to attached kiln grit” ...

This can clearly be seen around ‘9 o’clock’ - first image. 

I will admit, when examining closely before acquiring,  I had not noticed this slight base recesses, so not completely flat, as previously thought ... 

I hope the above images/description are of some help ... 

Stuart 

@ming1449

Hi Stuart,

thanks for the images, much appreciated. This is turning into a bit of a research project for me, I’ve got a lot of time on my hands right now as I’m in lockdown looking after my wife. She’s a doctor and caught the virus while caring for patients ( she’s ok, getting better slowly ).

Im trying to see what factors dictated this type of base and when they started to be used for these larger pieces. I’ve found examples from the Wanli period so far but obviously can not access any pages from the book source you gave me. It may be that quality of paste available and the different kiln characteristics used may be a factor, warping and collapse is always a risk on the larger pieces and different workshops may have found different ways to help prevent this. The concave shape was done to help stability, the rough trimming is certainly also normal for a lot of Ming bases. Whatever I find I’ll pass on, but this will probably be a slow project.

all the best,

Hugh.

Hello,Stuart

To me your vase has old repair to the base to stop it from more damage, I have one that was 

repaired about the same way. I could be wrong but that what it look like to me.it is a beautiful piece 

John

Thank your wife for me, she and her colleagues are the heroes.