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E16th C Four Phoenixes Guan

 
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 Ming1449
(@ming1449)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 2710
Topic starter 11/04/2020 2:08 pm  

So, the week before lock-down I was in London trawling Portobello Market and Kensington Church Street and stumbled across this in an Arabic/Asian gallery. The dealer had been told, and believed, it to be 18th century?! After a rather long, and somewhat protracted, negotiation I managed to acquire for nearly 40% of the asking price - perhaps an indication of how difficult and challenging market conditions were just before everything closed down ..?! 

H. 32cm, MD 19cm, BD 21cm. Main body composition with four phoenixes, or two pairs, male and female with different tails amongst lotus scrolls. These are probably the Luan and the Feng, rather then the more commonly seen Feng and Huang types usually depicted ...

It has some condition issues. Long body crack, glaze pulls/losses to the mouth rim/base line, blue tone slightly pale and areas of  ‘smokiness’ to glaze surface. This ‘smokiness’ is possibly due to a faulty glaze recipe, which may have been to thick, and probably also caused the interior running/pooling and edge losses to the mouth rim - 5th image. Such features are not common but are seen occasionally on such wares ...

This guan is early 16th C, ether late Zhengde or very early Jiajing periods - so 1515/mid 1520’s. The Gugong, Beijing has a guan/cover dated to Zhengde with similar, but not identical decoration - last image ... 

Apart from the Gugong example, this guan appears to be extremely rare  as no other example with this overall decoration seems to have been published or is known to be held within any public institutes/museum or private collection ...

It’s now in the hands of my restorer - so probably to be unseen again for several months ...!!

Stuart 


   
Nic, Shinigami, Kaolin and 1 people reacted
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 Julia
(@julia)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 7257
11/04/2020 2:30 pm  

That is lovely, Stuart!  I shall look forward to seeing it after restoration is complete.

I have no idea what you were talking about re Luan and Feng, so I am off to do some research.  Hope it will be ok to ask questions if I don't find what I am looking for? 😊 


   
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Adams Asian Art
 Adams Asian Art
(@imperialfinegems)
Mark Adams
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 7080
11/04/2020 3:55 pm  

A stunningly beautiful example of an exceptionally rare guan. 👌

Mark 


   
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avatar
 avatar
(@avatar)
Noble Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 1427
12/04/2020 12:23 am  

Nice! Congratulations!


   
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Shinigami
 Shinigami
(@shinigami)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 4870
12/04/2020 3:19 am  

What a find! It’s obviously a good time for makings bargains now. 

Birgit


   
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 Ming1449
(@ming1449)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 2710
Topic starter 12/04/2020 4:31 pm  

Hi Julia - 

The Feng type is a male phoenix, with a tail depicted as seen in the first/third images posted and the Huang type is the more common female type, usually drawn with a curly tail. These two types have been seen on ceramics since the Yuan dynasty ... 

The Luan type in the second/forth images, first drawn this way in the Xuande period, is also thought to be a female? However I understand that old Chinese texts state this is an entirely different ‘bird’ then the Feng and Huang phoenixes - so this ‘bird’ could be either male or female ... 

Apologies, but I can’t seem to attach any images to this thread showing the differing types - don’t know if anyone else is having similar issues - so hope this explanation helps - somewhat ..?!🙄🤔

Stuart 

 


   
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 Julia
(@julia)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 7257
13/04/2020 2:55 pm  

Hi Stuart,

Thank you. I did read about the Feng/Huang and then got confused over the information I read on the Luan type.  Interesting.  More images would certainly be helpful and good to see but I think there was a problem earlier as I couldn't even access the site.

Julia

 


   
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 Ming1449
(@ming1449)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 2710
Topic starter 13/04/2020 4:47 pm  

Hi Julia -

I emailed Peter earlier regarding my problems with attaching additional images to any posts, and the ongoing issue with 'button' access, and he kindly re-set my account🙂 ...

Unfortunately this reset has not cured the issues, so Peter has said he'll contact the site provider for help!!😒...

I've collated some wonderful images showing the differing types so will post these on a separate post in the next few days, if above 'issues' continue ... 

Stuart  


   
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 Julia
(@julia)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 7257
14/04/2020 3:51 am  

Thanks, Stuart.  I will look forward to that! 🤗 


   
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Steve
 Steve
(@steve)
Famed Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 1794
19/04/2020 5:49 pm  

@ming1449

Hi Stuart,

An amazing jar. I would find it hard to wait to bring it home! Thanks for sharing.

Re: the technical glitches here: I'm sure you've tried a different browser and/or emptied the history/cache? When I come across glitches like the ones you describe that usually does the trick.

Good luck!

Steve

This post was modified 5 years ago by Steve

   
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 Ming1449
(@ming1449)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 2710
Topic starter 20/04/2020 9:34 am  

Hi Steve -

As before, my pleasure to share ... 

Re: technical issues - very much appreciated your advice on this but, unfortunately, have tried both and still ongoing?!🤨

I understand from some other Forum members that they are encountering same, or similar, issues!!🙄...

Stuart


   
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Hugh Milne
 Hugh Milne
(@hughmilne)
Active Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 14
26/04/2020 10:16 am  

@ming1449

Hi Stuart,

im new to this forum but have been collecting and studying for a while now. Please correct me if I’m wrong but this type of base was not used during the Ming period. The flat, slightly concave base occurred later during the 17-18th C. By this time this style of decoration hadn’t been done for a couple of hundred years and different styles were being used by the new generations of artists. Also, a guan jar of this type would have a very high price tag.
If I saw this piece for sale I would conclude it was from the second half of the 20th C, but this is only my personal opinion and I mean no offence by it.

best regards,

Hugh.


   
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 Ming1449
(@ming1449)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 2710
Topic starter 26/04/2020 4:50 pm  

Hi Hugh - and welcome to this great forum ...

Absolutely no offence taken but I'am afraid your mistaken, the type of base seen/found on this type of guan is a typical for this period, late 15th/early 16th C ...

During the Ming dynasty, the bases on such large pieces were trimmed/finished differently during different periods, 14th - 17th centuries, also bases of such wares ordered/produced at the Imperial kilns differed from those made at the minyao kilns, such as this guan, where the differing grades of materials ie: clay, glaze, cobalt and production/craftsmanship ie: forming, painting, trimming, finishing and even firing very much depended on the level of patronage ...

I can only add that whilst very rare, the painting style and some of the decorative motifs are found/can be seen on other early 16th wares of differing forms and, when held/examined closely one can feel the imperfections of the body and see the slight differences within the motifs and overall drawing ...

You are quite right, an early 16thC guan with such rare decoration would be very expensive but, as mentioned above, the dealer had been told, and believed, that it was 18thC so negotiations commenced priced as such - rather fortunately for me ...

Stuart 

 


   
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tam18
 tam18
(@tam18)
Noble Member
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 1385
26/04/2020 9:03 pm  

It would be interesting to get Giovanni's or Peter 's view on this jar.  What would concern me is that a dealer in the heart of the London antique world could have inquired and been told this was C18th when it clearly is not C18th style. Surely it's easy enough to check online.

I would also wonder slightly about the very prominent iron oxide line around the outside of the base rim, and the messy glaze  on the interior rim. Are these really features of large (and potentially rare ) Ming pieces? I don't know enough about Ming porcelain to tell

tam


   
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Hugh Milne
 Hugh Milne
(@hughmilne)
Active Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 14
27/04/2020 5:35 am  

@ming1449
Thanks for the welcome Stuart, and thanks for the reply.

Im off to do more research on the subject of bases. Do you have any information yourself relating to these type of bases being used during this period? If I find anything useful myself I’ll let you know.

best regards,

Hugh


   
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