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I know there’s much knowledge of Chinese porcelain here. Does anyone know about cloisonné? There’s a Ruyie border around the top rim, but the base does not have enamel. Large and small dragon.
I also think Chinese, I can't see any wear or pitting that would indicate they may be much older than Mark suggests.
However, these are, in my opinion, nicer and more interesting than the usual type of cloisonné dragon tourist items.
Julia
For more information on the difference between them. Simply Google 'how to tell the difference between Chinese and japanese cloisonne'. You will see numerous articles and a interesting YouTube video by Joshua Chamberlain from Chamberlain Antiques.
Mark
Thank you Julia and Mark. Unfortunately, I’ve read all the articles which is one reason I mentioned the ruyie border around the top (Chinese) and the non-enameled bottom (Japanese). However, I haven’t watched the Chamberlain video, which I will do. Also, the insides have a coating of greenish enamel. I couldn’t find if that’s a Chinese or Japanese trait.
I've been following thread with interest. Can anyone here identify the origin of this vase. It is not stated by the source and seem to fall in between the guidelines found on the internet. I think it is most likely Japanese but I'm not sure.
The source also have this one for sale which is stated to be Chinese. I think it's late Qing.
Mark and Julia, I am posting two closeups of pitting. There are a whole lot of them, but none very large like I’ve seen on some old cloisonné. Also, a photo of the inside.
Corey the first one is Japanese, I think. The small round circles around the mouth are said to be an indication of Japanese origin. The second could be Chinese. I have to say, it is really difficult to be certain. I am not an expert so just take it as an opinion based on what I have read and seen elsewhere.
One issue I find when trying to study items online for comparison is that so many sellers say their items are late 19th c when I am not sure they are. I think many of what we see, especially with the unenamelled bases are actually 20th c, often 1930s onwards, many of them made for the tourist market. One of my dead relatives was a merchant seaman who sailed all over the place on a cargo ship and he brought home similar items. Of course, this is not to say they have no value, just less value than some sellers would want you to think especially as we all know that value is not necessarily attached to age but to quality and desirability. Unfortunately, manufacture prior to 20th c has a certain cachet and that period is used as quite a catch-all date for many things.
CA (sorry don't know your name) those are better pictures. The regularity of the pin holes is interesting. Cloisonné is quite prone to losses, rust spots and dents. I still think Mark is pretty much correct with the dating but as I said, I really don't know. My feeling is that if they are older, it isn't by much.
I hope someone who knows a lot about cloisonné will come along and enlighten us all!
OK thanks, so I was right the vase is probably Japanese. It was the green glazed interior and the lower borders that I found could possibly indicate a Chinese origin. The second vase has an enameled white base (slightly turned yellow probably from age) - can't copy the picture - so I guess it actually likely is a Qing dynasty example even though it's probably not so valuable.
I am not even certain it is Chinese, nor am I convinced either has any real age. I can't tell very much from those photos, I'm afraid.
It's described as Chinese by the source but no dating is given. From the shape I would say it's late Qing - early republic. It appear to be old and the source has interesting and authentic stuff available. I'm not going to buy it so no need to worry.
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