I would look into very decorative items from the 19th C. to 1960.  You don't have to stick to porcelain. Because of the booming chinese middle class, I believe you will see an increase in the value of these items as more chinese families will be looking for objects to decorate their home; not necessarily to build a collection.  (and in my opinion, a high quality piece made around 1900 is more enjoyable to look at than a low quality ming or kangxi piece. )

But historically, the high end collectable pieces have increased the most in value in the shortest time. You could perhaps buy less but of higher quality?

On ebay, and with a bit of patience, work and vigilance, you'll go further with the same budget. Look at auction at big auction results, the same piece sold on ebay can easily sell for twice as much at christies.

Thank you very much. That’s a really interesting perspective. There is definitely a knack to this. I think the beginner can easily be led off course. I think there are many more pitfalls than just fakes and copies.

one example of a pitfall is deciding when a piece is so good, that damage or wear becomes less of an issue? I’ve avoided some over-glaze enamels up until now in the belief that their condition can only worsen over time. But clearly this isn’t necessarily true. Yet, I cannot bring myself to pay for a piece of rose medallion which has signs of wear to faces etc. 

I am looking at the items currently on offer in the Bidamount Marketplace and thinking “If I go for just one piece, which should it be?” But I also think “We’ll they must all be pretty good buys or they wouldn’t have made it passed the Bidamount team?”

It’s quite a challenge, but very enjoyable too!

Interesting thread, dear Nic. Stricltly from a point of investment I would buy neither the 19th century export vases (because there were so many of them) nor damaged Ming. I would save a little longer and go for undamaged Ming or Qing of good quality.

I don't know if export porcelain is suitable for investing, because the rich Chinese buyers are not interested in it. This might change in a few decades however, and there's always the possibility to sell to other Western collectors.

Thanks! This is all really helpful! I know from collecting other things that, when the bottom falls out of the market (which is always a possibility), common or average items loose ALL their value overnight. The collectors left standing will be wanting the rare, more unusual and undamaged items.

At the moment, the competition at the ‘under £1000’ end of the market is fierce. So it is possible to amass a collection of items that you’ve paid top dollar for in this range. It is this range that is most vulnerable to devaluation in the event of a drop, unless you’re really clever in how you buy.

Nic

The value of export porcelain has increased a lot in the past 10 years. What shinigami said is true, the rich buyers aren't usually interested in export porcelain, but it isn't necessarily the case for the new upper chinese middle class. Many of them want "flashy" pieces to decorate their homes and can't afford to high end domestic ware of the same period. It must be the justification why the value of export porcelain has increased so much in the past decade. 

I think well painted 19th century export large vases might be a good investment. 

Look at this:

20 years ago these were worth close to nothing

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/24798/lot/78/

Buy high, sell low, make the kids earn their own money when I'm gone?. Well only joking.

Buying as an investment it is always in the back of my mind. I most definitely lack the knowledge to find the great pieces at garage sale prices.  As I have mentioned before I tend to like antiques to show a bit of a history and age, I like to refer to it as life.

 As an investment buying the best you can afford is the catch phrase, but it comes down to do you break the bank on a few extremely good pieces and hope for the best in 5,10, or twenty years hoping for the big score?  The other option is buy many good pieces and hope for profitability by volume. Another option I think would be to buy simpler items at cheaper prices and constantly turn over your inventory, combining small profits and then buying one better item. I suspect that is what a lot of collectors are doing here on Bidamount. And this is what I hope to be doing as my knowledge increases, 

It will, in my opinion, come down to how much time you put into your efforts, at some point collecting and flipping becomes work and even stressful if your retirement bepending on a rising market. To me this is not fun.

Saying all this, there are many folks here doing well with the buying and selling. So there must be some thing at work to make this happen.

Peter has said in several videos that the market for Chinese export porcelain is very soft right now and there are bargains to be had - twenty or more years ago C18th export blue and white and good Fitzhugh pattern teasets etc. were commanding higher prices. In the west people are living in smaller houses with minimalist design and displays of porcelain vases or tableware just don't fit any more .

Armorial porcelain seems still expensive , but I think blue and white Kangxi and C18th export is a good investment. But not the poorer quality C19th nanking plates .

I don't think canton rose enamel pieces will ever get very high in value:  they are too common, fussy,  and an acquired taste. and I don't believe damaged or domestic Ming pieces are a good investment. 

Always the advice is , collect what you like and never mind if you lose out in the end , but also go for quality and you will probably gain the end . I'm sure good quality C18th export prices will bounce back sometime. But not because of chinese buyers, who will mostly disregard export porcelain because it's not familiar to them, and the decorative style is different.  

I would only add...buy something unusual, something odd you haven’t seen before. This is an old premise when garage sale hunting. Logic dictating that if the item is odd/unusual/rare, it may command a premium price if it becomes sought after in the future. Just my two sense. Todd

I agree with all that has been said, and this kind of investment is always going to have risked attached because taste is fickle and can be manipulated which is why I, too, would look for the the more unusual, but finely decorated items that can still easily be identified as of the period - whatever the period might be.

For example, look at that Yongzheng plate thread, the Sotheby's example.  There are loads of Yongzheng plates on the market, but this one was different from the usual flowers / borders patterns, very nicely executed and clearly of the period.  That might be an expensive example but the point is, it sold for a lot more than many other plates from this time.

Julia

I think the best advice is buy quality , No matter if you are buying for investment or to re-sell , if you can't afford top quality Ming buy top quality Kangxi , if you cant afford top quality Mark and period ceramics at all buy the best export pieces you can , they do sell but it's all about knowing your prices , knowledge is power , if you know your market and know your product the bargains are out there.

Carl

P.S If you keep buying quality at the best prices you can you will make money long term , it's about consistency , if you consistently do something well that you have decent knowledge about you will succeed. 

Lots of excellent advice here! Thank you so much!

I think knowing your prices/values is key. It’s the only way of knowing if you’re getting a bargain, or at least not paying way over the odds because you’re bidding against people who just want the piece, regardless of price.

This is the difficult part, because it takes years to master that kind of knowledge and instinct. It’s a bit of a catch-22! Maybe the secret is to bid up to what you’re comfortable with, even if it’s way beneath the value and hope that sooner or later you get lucky? You may only win 1:30 but you will have had a good buy!

Interesting thread!

Bargains at eBay or other can be had if you are in the right place and right time.

Tam is correct. The market excluding items not seen before are still achieving high prices. However, as Perter alluded to items returning after auction sale of recent times and then reappearing with same or other house. These same items bought by prosperous buyers looking to cash in. Perhaps causing a ponzi scheme led by to many people with money to burn.

Has the market peaked? Absolutely and auction house are milking same.

A number of so-called investments made by primarily Chinese bidders have in recent tines pushed sale prices into new mans territory.

Like everything else including property, interest percentages fixed assets along with many others go in market cycles. Nothing new there.

Will the market in general tank? I don't know. Could be tomorrow or much later. But I see the signs as others have in particular seasoned dealers and well seasoned  collector's.

A number of high profile collections and or dealers have reduced their holdings etc.

If one wants to attempt to safeguard the issues of did I buy right or overpay. The answer is very subjective. 

It is very subjective with perilous waters surrounded by vultures.

I am a former leading pawnbroker, semi-retired valuer and many other Have been, in the past been caught out with substantial losses etc.

Generally speaking if you are buying as a collector then it is a hobby/pleasure. If on the other hand one is buying as a dealer then unless he can see at least 100% or more in profit he will not buy.

Mark

Hello all:

I agree with what Mark has said. In general, I cannot think of a worse investment than Chinese antiques. When I first began collecting in the 1980s there was no Internet and there was no eBay. The only way to acquire good quality items in the USA was through antique dealers in large cities like New York City and San Francisco or through the major auction houses such as Sotheby's and Christie's. I used at that time to buy one or two items a year during visits to San Francisco or New York City. When I decided to move to another city when I retired I got all my items appraised by Sotheby's for insurance purposes. They told me I was wasting my time if I ever had any intention to sell the items. They declared that while all the items were genuine high-quality Qing dynasty items the prices they might achieve at auction would be significantly lower than what I had paid for them and that was without all the commissions and other fees. In those days when there was very little competition antique dealers could double or triple the prices they had bought the items at.

When eBay became available and I started buying there, it became possible to obtain good quality items at much lower prices than one had paid in the past buying through antique dealers. However, with the booming Chinese economy and the increased demand for Chinese items, there were very few steals to be had on eBay. I assume that if I ever attempted to sell the eBay items I would get significantly less than what I had paid for them.

The above notwithstanding, I am a collector and I have no need fortunately to ever sell anything. So when I bid on an item, the possibility of profiting from its sale at a later date does not even cross my mind. I buy what I like and enjoy having around the house at the same time trying to ensure that the item is of the correct period and of good quality. Unless one is very savvy and knowledgable, the likelihood of profiting by buying and selling Chinese antiques is very low. There are much easier ways of making money.

Regards,

Errol

Thanks Mark and Errol,

I think this is such an interesting topic. There are quite obvious differences in opinion on some aspects of this, but each one is valid and very much appreciated!

I guess the overall message is: work on developing your knowledge, take a chance every now and then, exercise extreme caution, don’t spend more than you need to, enjoy the journey but... don’t be too hard on yourself when you get it wrong! 

Nic