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Hello Everyone,
So one thing that I have heard discussed a great deal is how there are auctions that have the majority of junk, but with a few good items thrown in. I have been SUPER hesitant to bid on these, no matter how "good" the few items "look" because why, if an auction house would sell blatant copies, would I trust them to not try and pull something? Wouldn't it be more strange for a few good items to slip in to a junk sale than to have them all just been really good fakes? This is a good example - the transitional jar that looks ok in a sale full of absolute junk:
Lot:
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/132594762_a-wucai-jar
Full Sale:
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/catalog/254932_lulushima-july-asian-art-sale-1/
I just have a hard time believing that there are 5 good items in a sale of 180? Someone bring me down to earth here lol.
Best,
Justin
I still remember that video on collectors bringing antique porcelain to Jingdezhen to have copied and sold at major auction houses. It might be convincing. A lot of people are banking on the advertising function a museum can provide free of charge.
@jg1133 You have hit upon a very important principle of collecting that is often overlooked because focus of authentication is often put on the source first, and then on the qualities of the individual piece.
Of my many 'commandments' of buying, I live and die by this one....
Judge the piece FIRST, and THEN the source (whether it be a multi million dollar house or a reputable auction house, or a thrift store)
Question for you - Looking at the photos and description of the wucai jar, are you 100% percent sure it is genuine? 90%? Less?
Not knowing your level of knowledge, I will tell you my feelings based upon my own level of knowledge (which is pretty good with later Qing, but not so good with early Qing/late Ming).
I like the look of the jar. It appears to have rendering that reflects the artist had a lot of comfort drawing a grapes and squirrels design. The color of the underglaze blue looks correct for Wanli period work, as well as the color of the enamels and overall look of the paste.
Are you familiar with the design of squirrels and grapes? It is a rebus (hidden meaning) that is intended as a blessing for long life.
If I was interested in buying this piece, I would look through Museum collections to find a similar period and design, put the images side by side, and compare. Any deviations in the design should be considered good reason to believe the auction piece is a fake.
However, regardless of my research, I would never bid on this piece unless I handled it because I lack sufficient experience with these late Ming/early Qing pieces UNLESS it was being offered so cheaply that I wouldn't miss the money I'd loose buying a fake.
This brings me to another of my 'commandments' of buying....
KNOW what you DON'T KNOW. Sounds silly, I know, but if you are unsure, mostly sure, kind of sure, on the fence...etc,, guess what? YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE LOOKING AT! That's okay, really! But you have to be honest enough with yourself to say, 'self...you like it, you want it to be genuine, but you just don't know do you? No, I don't.'
When this happens, and it happens a lot with me, you have to pass...don't risk financial loss and buyer's remorse.
Buying Chinese antiques should not be approach like gambling... trying to justify placing risky bids and justifying it by the potential of achieving high reward.....you'll go broke! Trust me...I know people who have done just that.
Believe it or not, my method of buying Chinese antiques is based upon Warren Buffet's method of investing, the baseball pitch theory:
“The trick in investing is just to sit there and watch pitch after pitch go by and wait for the one right in your sweet spot. And if people are yelling, 'Swing, you bum!,' ignore them.” Feb 2, 2017
That's right...pass on it until you've developed enough knowledge to know for 100% certain that the piece your want to buy is in your sweet spot of knowledge, THEN swing hard, and aim for the bleachers!
Best of luck.
Tim
@greeno107 Just today I was in a shop and the guy had some decent Asian things, although I could tell from talking to him him knowledge was average. He had this jaideite looking censor that he felt was old and high quality, but it had some damage. I think he wanted like $1200 for it. I imagine had I wanted it I could have talked him down to 800 or 900. But I am not at all confident when it comes to jade like that, so it wasn't even something I considered buying. Now, if it was $100 I probably would have grabbed it and rolled the dice. But for a grand I would need to be really sure it was good quality, and I know that with jade I just don't know enough, so I had to pass.
@greeno107 I agree with you 100% on all of these points. I am not an expert on these by any means. Peter thinks this is authentic, however what bothers me is that on the the current liveauctioneers example in question, I am not seeing the faces of any of the squirrels, where as on all of the authentic examples I can find, there are only a few squirrels that hide their face. The way they are painted seems different as well.
Here is one authentic example:
Again, I am not an expert at all, but my gut is telling me to stay away from this one. Maybe that is the "know what I don't know" kicking in.
Thanks again, as always!
Justin
@jg1133 I'm glad that my advice is of some help. Now, I too found the example you posted (Alain R Truong), but not others. And, Yes again, I see some differences in the manner of the rendering of the squirrels as you do.
So, in circumstances like this where you can only find one example, this is where the Forum becomes very useful.
Having a team of people to find other examples can really help nail down if you're making a good decision.
Perhaps someone in the Forum can find another example that does look more like the one currently in auction...Anyone?
Anyways, I did want to point out that some of the faces of the squirrels are visible on the jar you inquired about, they're just a little obscure. Take a look... I circled them in red:
The faces do look comparable to the jar listed by Alain R Truong. However, the circular pattern on the hind legs are different. This might just mean that the jar is of a later period...perhaps Kangxi rather than Transitional.
What I know is that I don't know..... it's a good rule.
@greeno107 it is funny that you mentioned the back legs, I noticed that as well. The way that they are done circular on the example I found, and the way that they are done on the example coming up soon is definitely different. I'm going to keep looking to see what I can find, I have had good luck translating some keywords for searches in Google into Chinese and then using that to search. I have been able to find a decent amount of examples in Chinese collections that way. That in conjunction with updating my VPN to Hong Kong really makes a big difference on research.
Thanks again @greeno107, you are the best.
Justin
@jg1133 One more observation...
All of the famille rose and blue and white pieces look completely new... quite obvious modern copies.
However, all the wucai and famille verte pieces have very believable decorations, but some of the porcelain looks a little suspicious.
Take a look at this charger...
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/132594737_a-large-wucai-charger
Nice mark, nice decoration, but the foot rim is wrong....the abundance of pig's hair (the black marks in the porcelain) is way too much, the surface is not smooth...you can see ripples.
I suspect this seller just knows a source for very high quality wucai / famille verte fakes.
@jg1133 One more observation...
All of the famille rose and blue and white pieces look completely new... quite obvious modern copies.
However, all the wucai and famille verte pieces have very believable decorations, but some of the porcelain looks a little suspicious.
Take a look at this charger...
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/132594737_a-large-wucai-charger
Nice mark, nice decoration, but the foot rim is wrong....the abundance of pig's hair (the black marks in the porcelain) is way too much, the surface is not smooth...you can see ripples.
I suspect this seller just knows a source for very high quality wucai / famille verte fakes.
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