Dear Peter and all,

only now I am looking at the pictures of that vessel. When you did post it, I was only focused on the high price already reached days before the end.

Well, now that I am looking at the pictures, I am astonished although not being myself expert on these enameled metal ware.

Are you sure that it is 18^th century? I have serious reservation. I even doubt that it is Chinese. The few similar items that I have seen, in Western style, are clearly Chinese. This one looks not so to me, but especially, it doesn’t look 18^th century.

And I see that even the seller is not claiming it to be 18^th century.

As a side note, the highest bidder plus another one has 100% bidding activity with this seller.

Best regards

Giovanni

Hi,

they have no obligation to prove that it is not antique, the onus is on you to prove that it is, they have guidelines on how you can do this, which involves getting a report from a recognised expert approved by them. One of my items was a c.1880 mochaware jug which had the assay mark VR 458, which denotes it was made during Queen Victoria’s reign, so that would be pre-1901. This wasn’t ‘evidence’ apparently. They still insisted on a report. 

of course, you’d likely have to pay for such a report and this whole time your parcel is in the local postal office and the clock is ticking down. If you don’t get it all sorted in 2 weeks, they send the parcel back to the seller.

As I say, most of the time your parcel flies through customs, but not always. I guess it depends how lucky you feel?!

Nic

Hi Giovanni,

I am doubting the piece too. I have seen that the mark is used a lot later too, and being in such a pristine condition I would not dare. I also checked it out today only. How can you see by the way that a bidder has 100% bidding activity with this seller ??

Kind regards

Staartmees

Yes , I agree there are some things about this bowl that bother me; the enamelling/gilding is in too perfect condition , the shading of the flowers and leaves doesn't look right, the greek key purple cartouches are a bit untidily drawn, and the buildings and faces/figures look too modern in the way they are drawn. Some of the greens and flower colours look wrong too

It reminds me a bit of a western subject qianlong porcelain vase that sold for a vast price at an auction in Macau a few years ago, which was also fake . 

The claim from the seller that it's C19th or earlier is also strange , I think , given the provenance and the fact that these fine beijing enamels stopped being produced at the Palace workshops after the qianlong period. C19th ones are mostly from Canton and much poorer in quality. This doesn't look C19th either to me, it looks new . 

It is described in the Newsletter as Qianlong Imperial M & P.

It looks very nice,perhaps if there were earlier pictures of it or some further background of its history then this could confirm its genuineness.

Vic

Dear Staartmess,

if you click on the bidding history and then on the name of each bidder, you will get his bidding activity of the last three months.

I have seen that in the same day this seller has sold a dubious (IMO) vase listed as Kangxi Dehua. The winning bidder has no activity with this seller, which is not possible. He must have retracted his bid after winning.

Nothing of the above is surely proving that he does shill bidding, though.

Dear Tam,

I fully agree with you. A Chinese hand of the 18^th end even 19^th century will not draw Western figures that way. The hand that draw the figures that way has born after Walt Disney ? 

I repeat that I am not expert on such type of ware, but all the pieces of this type that I have seen, have at least some degradation at the joint between the enameled parts and the nude metal rings. That for many reasons, regardless how the piece has been kept.

When you join two pieces of different substance (here, one enameled and the other not) and different structure (an even single plate and a reinforced one), the joint is subject to mechanical, thermal and electro-physical actions that even of low grade, in time will produce stress and alteration.

To me, that piece is quite recent.  

Best regards

Giovanni

Dear Peter and all - 

I see the winning bid was $22,340,00 - so significantly less then the Christie's piece.

I am no expert on such wares but have seen and handled a few over the years, and I would concur with Giovanni, Staartmess and Tam thoughts, this piece is certainly Not Imperial and I doubt it is even 19th century, I think it's fairly new ...

Stuart

Dear Giovanni,

I think you are right. I have seen high quality european subject decorations on snuff bottles, and looked at a few for comparison. You will see that even the imperial ones are not comparable to the bowl in question....

https://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/a-very-rare-beijing-enamel-european-subject-5046862-details.aspx?from=searchresults&intObjectID=5046862&sid=89b42eaf-78c1-45e9-9e77-50fedc609ada

https://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/a-magnificent-beijing-enamel-european-subject-snuff-bottle-4258000-details.aspx?from=searchresults&intObjectID=4258000&sid=24cdee77-200a-483e-802d-9a253963ecee

https://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/a-superb-beijing-enamel-european-subject-snuff-4952460-details.aspx?from=searchresults&intObjectID=4952460&sid=24cdee77-200a-483e-802d-9a253963ecee

https://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/a-rare-and-finely-painted-guangzhou-enamel-5977718-details.aspx?from=searchresults&intObjectID=5977718&sid=37c2696c-af1a-4e89-9dfb-d162e8064d6a

The decorations on these imperial snuff bottles much more resembles the way paintings were done at that time. 

Kind regards

staartmees

Posted by: clayandbrush

Dear Staartmess,

if you click on the bidding history and then on the name of each bidder, you will get his bidding activity of the last three months.

I have seen that in the same day this seller has sold a dubious (IMO) vase listed as Kangxi Dehua. The winning bidder has no activity with this seller, which is not possible. He must have retracted his bid after winning.

Nothing of the above is surely proving that he does shill bidding, though.

Dear Tam,

I fully agree with you. A Chinese hand of the 18^th end even 19^th century will not draw Western figures that way. The hand that draw the figures that way has born after Walt Disney ? 

I repeat that I am not expert on such type of ware, but all the pieces of this type that I have seen, have at least some degradation at the joint between the enameled parts and the nude metal rings. That for many reasons, regardless how the piece has been kept.

When you join two pieces of different substance (here, one enameled and the other not) and different structure (an even single plate and a reinforced one), the joint is subject to mechanical, thermal and electro-physical actions that even of low grade, in time will produce stress and alteration.

To me, that piece is quite recent.  

Best regards

Giovanni

Hi Giovanni,

I have mixed feelings. In terms of style, I would say it is exactly how European subject should look like on a top quality 18th C Chinese piece - the hands, the faces, the figures - all is matching the style from 18th C, quite far from Walt Disney in my opinion. 

staartmees: I would not compare decorations from enamel piece to a snuff bottle - different size, different medium, and different provenances.

So the style in my opinion is typical for age, but the age is at question here 🙂 If that is a copy, I would say the maker mastered the style and there will be more of those coming up soon 🙂

I would agree with you, Giovanni, on the quality aspect - it's mint! Take a look just at the metal rims - they look brand new or just after detailed polishing. There is no damage, no ware at all! And that should imply (if it's genuine of course) it came from a proper collection, where this item got a well deserved care, but that would be vocalised by the seller i guess and with a record of proven history like that, it would not end up on ebay.

Very intriguing item. Please remember the story that Eskenazi used to say about imperial Kangxi bowls that appeared on sell in the 80's - nobody believed they were genuine because they were looking like brand new. They were genuine.

Kind regards,

Adrian 

Agreed, that is not a mark and period example, for all the reasons given, and others.

Its so terrible, its comical.    The big eyes do indeed have more in common with Walt Disney, as mentioned above, than antique China.

Its amazing that certain ebay sellers continually auction long lists of porcelain, jade, bronze etc, in perfect condition.   In 24 years of dealing in such objects, its extraordinarily rare to find one that is not damaged in some way - glaze loss, hairline, dings, chips etc etc.     Until recent times they moved around the world by horse and cart, train, and ship, in rough journeys that took weeks or months.   Nevertheless certain sellers have long lists of perfect examples offered by ebay auction - one wonders why?

In my own case for example, my grand mother's uncle was a prominent collector in Shanghai at the start of the 20th Century (his brother was the Secretary of the Shanghai Municipal Counsel).    His house was later used as a Military head quarters by the Chinese (it was on the extravagant side).    When he died in 1940 my grandmother was bequeathed much of his collection.    At the time she was living in Hong Kong to where it was shipped.    Before the Japanese invaded HK, it was placed in a Hong Kong Land Company Safe, in the basement of one of their buildings (where my Grandfather worked - he was later MD for many years).   By the time WW2 was over, all that was intact were the Bronzes - everything else was badly broken or destroyed.    This is a typical experience of many Chinese antiques.    When someone offers you a 200 year old Chinese porcelain etc that's perfect - ask yourself if you're really looking at that needle in a haystack that survived wars, long overland and ocean journeys unscathed.    The odds are against it.

Dear Adrian,

I find it difficult to find anything that resembles this way of painting of this age. Do you have anything you can share since you say it is typical?

I am intrigued by this and therefore have been searching without success.That is why I started to compare with the snuff bottles..

Thanks,

Staartmees

Posted by: Avionsunantiques

Agreed, that is not a mark and period example, for all the reasons given, and others.

Its so terrible, its comical.    The big eyes do indeed have more in common with Walt Disney, as mentioned above, than antique China.

Its amazing that certain ebay sellers continually auction long lists of porcelain, jade, bronze etc, in perfect condition.   In 24 years of dealing in such objects, its extraordinarily rare to find one that is not damaged in some way - glaze loss, hairline, dings, chips etc etc.     Until recent times they moved around the world by horse and cart, train, and ship, in rough journeys that took weeks or months.   Nevertheless certain sellers have long lists of perfect examples offered by ebay auction - one wonders why?

In my own case for example, my grand mother's uncle was a prominent collector in Shanghai at the start of the 20th Century (his brother was the Secretary of the Shanghai Municipal Counsel).    His house was later used as a Military head quarters by the Chinese (it was on the extravagant side).    When he died in 1940 my grandmother was bequeathed much of his collection.    At the time she was living in Hong Kong to where it was shipped.    Before the Japanese invaded HK, it was placed in a Hong Kong Land Company Safe, in the basement of one of their buildings (where my Grandfather worked - he was later MD for many years).   By the time WW2 was over, all that was intact were the Bronzes - everything else was badly broken or destroyed.    This is a typical experience of many Chinese antiques.    When someone offers you a 200 year old Chinese porcelain etc that's perfect - ask yourself if you're really looking at that needle in a haystack that survived wars, long overland and ocean journeys unscathed.    The odds are against it.

 

I politely disagree. Style is typical (yes, including big eyes) for 18th C European figures - there is a lot of examples of that available in few clicks. The struggles of history in last 200 years should imply there would be hardly anything available on the market, yet items are resurfacing all the time or are simply discovered. Can I ask you - how on earth all those items in museums survived your dramatic vision of events? They shouldn't according to you. Somehow they did - like most of the antiques we see every day on any antique market, shop, auction, etc.

Way too dramatic vision for me to accept it. 

Kind regards,

Adrian

Posted by: staartmees

Dear Adrian,

I find it difficult to find anything that resembles this way of painting of this age. Do you have anything you can share since you say it is typical?

I am intrigued by this and therefore have been searching without success.That is why I started to compare with the snuff bottles..

Thanks,

Staartmees

Dear Staartmees,

Lets focus then of the snuff bottles. I am sure we can find something on the almighty WWW that both of us and the other fellow members would have no doubts it's a genuine piece and a good object to match the styles.

Please give me few moments 🙂

Be right back...

Posted by: staartmees

Dear Adrian,

I find it difficult to find anything that resembles this way of painting of this age. Do you have anything you can share since you say it is typical?

I am intrigued by this and therefore have been searching without success.That is why I started to compare with the snuff bottles..

Thanks,

Staartmees

Hello again,

This is just after a very quick browsing the web:

http://www.e-yaji.com/past%20auctions/meriem/main/pages/666(a)_jpg.asp

...seems like there is some good literature on this item...

Then it's this (unfortunately pictures are low res):

http://www.alaintruong.com/archives/2015/05/23/32104747.html

There is also something very similar to this item from ebay:
https://www.cohenandcohen.co.uk/objectdetail/772610/17669/chinese-painted-enamel-on-copper-tray

Maybe I should clarify here something. I can see the general style of the figures matching criteria for 18th C Chinese depictions of European figures. I am not claiming here that this is a genuine piece, quite opposite, I have a lot of doubts. The execution of the paintings is not the finest one, but the key characteristics are there. In other words, I would say it is within a style, but I wouldn't dare to say it's real and it was made in the 18th C. And that's it.

Kind regards,

Adrian

Thanks Adrian. 

But I really do not agree. The first one , the snuff box, is very very different, and painted in exactly the same style as "my" ( I wish:) ) Snuff bottle examples. Much more in line with the paintings you would see in that period. You must also see that the outlines are much softer, eyes and especially eyelids much less pronounced, colors are softer. It is not comparable at all in my view. 

The second item is also very different. Look at the eyes and outlines. Even when the cohen and cohen one is of much lesser quantity ( if authentic) the outlines are the same as with the bonhams example, softer, not as harsh. also the eyes are do not have the same harshness as the bowl sold on ebay. 

To me  if even makes the bowl sold more questionable. No 18th century painting was painted in this way.

Another point, which knowledgeable dealer would sell such a bowl on ebay for 20.000 in stead of 10 times that much at christie's ?

This is because he knows it is not an imperial 18th century bowl. he is a professional and also did not list it as 18th century. In my view simply because it isn't...my thoughts. If I were him I would offer the bowl first to christies, sotheby;s and Bonhams. If they give negative feedback or he thinks he can get the same at ebay (more or less) I assume he will sell at ebay. Because it is quicker, with the big auction houses you need to wait until the next suitable auction, which might be months away, and you need to spend money first without knowing if you will sell. With ebay it takes 10 days and you will have your money But, if you will get 10x more at christies, that is worth the wait and he didn't consider it worth it. 

Kind regards

Staartmees