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Dear Stuart, Birgit, Michael, all what you said is not important. He is a top dealer, no? (At least according to one person).
Giovanni
Giovanni, I don't understand why someone like you is still answering to my posts. I would really appreciate if you don't. Besides that I'm not going in to any discussions with you. Thanks.
About Chien Lung Tang. I first came across his website when he was advertising at the Orientations magezine website.. It's a very respected magezine and I wouldn't thinkthey would allow someone selling fakes advertising at their site. Some of the pieces shown should be bought at Sotheby's but I will have to check. I have used the pieces shown as reference before but no one ever commented that they are fakes but now after starting this thread I actually got doubts about some of his pieces myself.
@Xin. Thank you for the high resolution pictures of the vase at Henan Museum. But the vase I posted is not mine. I didn't buy it. I bought another piece from the same auction that I am sceptical about myself. About the cobalt blue color. It IS rather dark but it's probably the photograph. I have a copy of one of the pictures of the vase sold in Florida that was posted here and at that picture the blue color is lighter in tone.
At the same platform the vase was sold some extremely interesting items has been sold recently. From a different auctioneer a likely authentic Qingliangsi ru washer was sold for a bargain. (I didn't get it) I have bookmarked the link to the sale but won't share it and the pictures are shown in a way so I can't copy them. Otherwise I would have posted them here. A very nice likely authentic Liangzhu culture jade cong was also sold for a bargain. I have copies of pictures of it and might post it another time. At Sotheby's one would probably have to cash out at least one million dollar for a similar piece.
That you are not going into any discussion with me is not true, here for example, where I said that iron red splashes are not found on Jun glazes, you are trying to confute that by bringing examples, namely iron red on celadon glaze and coper red on Jun glaze, that has nothing to do:
https://bidamount.com/the-bidamount-asian-art-forum/help-identify-this/a-song-bowl#post-26796
I was trying to not post in your threads, but there is a limit. It is not right to let unexperienced readers taking completely wrong conclusions, by reading your posts.
In this your last post, you continue persisting in your not understandable attitude, continuing asserting things that you don’t prove, obscure auctioneers that are selling for bargain Ru items (are you really convinced that the World is full of idiots? Do you have an idea about how many known Ru pieces exist? Do you really think that somebody would sell on Liveuctioneers an item worth millions of dollars?? Come on).
I repeat, you have NEVER, NEVER, proven one single thing that you are claiming to have. You refuse to follow the suggestions that more experienced members here are giving to you. Do you know what this means? Which is your rule here? Spreading misconceptions among the unexperienced members?
Giovanni
I didn't try to confute anything in the thread you linked to. Or at least that wasn't my intention. I just wanted to mention there is some celadon glazes made in the Song dynasty that resembles the glaze of the bowl. I totally agree the bowl is new but forgot to say it.
The washer I mentioned was not identifyed as ru ware by the seller and therefore not described as such. I was described as celadon only. I should probably have said possibly authentic in stead of likely authentic. That would probably have been more correct. If the washer should be a fake it is probably the best fake I have ever seen. It sold in the thousands. The auctioneer had some other Song style pieces that looked to me as they could be period pieces and also sold for fairly high prices. I'll see if I can find a way to copy the pictures of the washer and then maybe post them on the forum.
Why would I have to prove anything? I do take the suggestions the experienced members are giving into consideration but it does happen that I disagree with them. That's not the same as spreading misconception among unexperienced members. Not in my opinion.
And I still find it somehow strange that no one ever commented the meiping sold for half a million dollars in Florida is fake when it was first posted on the forum by the member named Charles. To quote from his post in the thread I linked to:
"In early Ming Dynasty, red is the most difficult color to fire in porcelain, red color generally turned out to be iron rusty color (which is the Chinese name for iron red). The vase I posted was purchased from Christi’s in 1976. It was authenticated by top Chinese porcelain experts. The auction house in Miami estimated the price between $30,000 to 50,000, but it was hammered at $485,000, plus 20% buyers priumium. Do not you guys think a newer collector would pay that much money? Without hairlines, the price of the vase is easy over million dollars."
Charles
He actually also say in an earlier thread that it's iron red glaze. I haven't noted that. But I guess I can always contact Christie's to hear if they can confirm the vase was sold by them in 1976. Not sure if such a request is within their services though.
Dear Corey, let put things in the right place, in civil manner.
I do not know exactly to what are you referring to by linking to that thread, at least it is not clear to what Charles is referring. In that thread, Peter is referring to a fake item.
Charles is talking about a Ming underglaze iron red, which does not exist.
So I can’t comment there.
The fact that an item has reached an high price, especially on a secondary auction house, is not always relevant.
Actually, this can happen also at the major auction houses. Especially for snuff bottles, where the main criteria for the major auction houses is provenance, and not the object per se.
Regards,
Giovanni
Hi Cory -
Re Charles comments on 'iron-red' ...
This so called 'iron red' is an over-glazed red enamel, based on iron oxide. This technique, used as a substitute for under-glazed red, is fired at a lower temperature and produces a more precise, even tone. Iron red was first used at Jingdezhen in the Yuan dynasty ...
Giovanni is quire correct, Ming underglaze iron red is unknown ...
Stuart
Yes, iron red is an overglaze technique, I know. Charles never said it was underglaze. I was just wondering if the use of iron red overglaze technique on these meipings could be the reason why it appear to have been worn off. But it says in the description of the the meiping at liveauctioneers that it's copper red glaze which is an underglaze tecnique so wear is not the reason why the red color appear to have faded. Charles must have confused iron red with copper red?
@Giovanni. I was linking to that thread because the vase Charles talks about and the vase at liveauctioneers are one and the same. Originally there were pictures of the vase in the posts by Charles but for some strange reason these have been deleted.
But could we please end this debate. The vase at liveauctioneers have been declared fake here and if it's a fake the vase I posted is probably also a fake. I was just not fully convinced because the vase at liveauctioneers sold for half a million dollars; is stated to have been bought at Christie's; it was in the belongings of the family of president Rutherford B. Hayes like the rest of the items in the auction; and finally the forum member Charles who I understand was a respected member here said it was authenticated by top Chinese porcelain experts.
All the best
Corey
Corey, I think photos automatically disappear from posts after a certain period of time.
Corey, I think photos automatically disappear from posts after a certain period of time.
Might be broken links from all the server/hosting moves that have taken place in the last year alone... it is problematic, as alot of posts make very little sense and have very little educational value without accompanying pictures. 🙁
~ Decorative Arts, Antiques and Accessories, at Mollari's ~ www.mollaris.com
You may be right, Michael; I assumed it was to save space.
Either way, I agree: the educational value of the posts is lost. It is also quite frustrating as the search is awkward and time-consuming. Finally you find what you wanted and discover there is no longer a relevant photo.
Still we have a free forum, so I am not complaining, just commenting. 😊
Right after this thread (fortunately) went silent I found a Yongle period meiping painted with an underglaze copper red that has excactly the same grey tone as the meping I posted, at Nanjing Museum, excavated from the tomb of Princess Ancheng, daughter og Yongle. Attached side by side for comparison.
Not that I really want to continue this discussion, but I just wanted to show that I was right and Xin was wrong (about the color) after all.
I can't get get to the library with the public computers because of the virus anyway, so I can't really follow up. I'm using my moms computer.
Link with the meiping and other pieces at the museum. http://www.alaintruong.com/archives/2017/01/02/34755922.html
All the best and take care.
/Corey
Hi Cory -
No, Xin is not wrong ...
Two more images of this meiping recovered from the burial chamber of ‘Princess Ancheng’ in 1957, who was the third daughter of the Emperor Yongle, and died in 1443, 8th year of Zhengtong A very similar meiping (but missing its cover) was found in the burial chamber of the princess daughter-in-law who died in 1449 ...
The ‘Ming shilu’ (records of the Ming) mentions that this ‘Princess Ancheng’ title was conferred in the jiawr year (1402, 35th year of the Hongwu reign. (As an ‘usurper’ the Yongle ordered these records re-written to obliterate any mention of the Emperor Jianwen) ...
Most scholars are of the view that the two meiping are imperial wares made in the Hongwu period (Wang Liying, ‘Zhongguo taoci quanji’: Ming (shang), Shanghai, 2000; and Guojia Wenwu Ju, ‘Zhongguo wenwu jinghua dacidian, Taoci juan’, Shantand Hong Kong, 1995)...
Wares attributed to the Hongwu period, dishes, bowls, vases and jars, which display a similar underglazed red tone can be seen in the Gugong Beijing, NPM Taipei and the British Museum. The attributed pieces within these collections also demonstrate the wide variations of the red tones on such wares ...
I saw this meiping when the exhibition you cite was held at the National Museum of Scotland, Edinburgh, in 2014 - a truly beautiful, and extremely rare, object ...
Stuart
As a 'caveat' to the above, and in terms of 'neutrality', I would also add the following:- ..
Although the auction houses, and most academics/scholars working in China still accept that these underglaze red/blue and white type wares form a coherent group ordered/produced in/during the Hongwu reign, this view has been challenged over the last 15 years or ....
There are now widely differing views on wheather the Ming Imperial kilns were established in 1368, 2nd year Hongwu, or much later in 1402, 4th year of Jiawen ...
Some of the new/younger generation of scholars propose that the later date is more likely, and base this 1402 attribution on in depth studies carried out on this group of wares - body, glaze, foot/base, cobalt blue and copper-red pigments and motifs/decoration - and archiogical evidence recovered from early Ming tombs excavated between the 1950s and 1990s ...
See 'Hongwu Imperial Porcelain' from the Yongle Reign' by Du Feng and Sunday Baoru, Orientations, June 2006, and 'The David Vases Revisited II: The Dragon Bands, by Prof Peter Y. K. Lam, Orientations, January 2012 ...
I would only add that this later proposal is still highly controversial ...
Stuart
Sharp and well-informed as always, Stuart. When I first came across said meiping I also thought it looked like a Hongwu example but I couldn't find anything on the web where it was dated to that period. But now with a new search I found an article about the exhibition in Edinburgh in 2014 where it is actually dated to the Zhengtong period. Strange. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-27831724 There is also no mentioning of it in the sale of a very similar hongwu copper red meiping at Sotheby's in 2010. Actually it is stated in the lot essay that: "Only one other closely related meiping of similar form and size, painted with the design of the 'Three Friends of the Winter', is known – a meiping from the collection of the Nanjing Museum and included in the exhibition Chinese Porcelain in Underglaze Blue from the Nanjing Museum Collection, Sagawa Art Museum, Moriyama, 2003, cat. no. 12. The Nanjing Museum vessel was excavated from the tomb of Song Hu, son-in-law of emperor Yongle, at Dongshanqiao, Jiangning county, Jiangsu province." http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2010/fine-chinese-ceramics-works-of-art-hk0331/lot.2619.html And if said meiping is from the Zhengtong period then the grey outcome of the copper based glaze would probably also have been accepted in the Yongle period. You'll have to admit that the color of the two meipings is a 'perfect match'.
The frustrating thing is that we don't know for sure if the sale of the meiping in Florida was a scam. IF it was originally bought at Christie's as stated it is almost certainly authentic and if that is the case, then the vase I found and thought of bidding on is probably also authentic. Porcelain painted with copper red glaze seems to be particularly rare in the Yongle period and the combination of copper red and cobalt blue with the dragon motive in the middle Ming is extremely rare so if authentic it would be a borderline worldclass piece.
Thanks again Stuart! At least you gave me a reason for visiting my mom again during the corona crisis.
/Corey
Hi Cory -
Unfortunately the catalogue produced for the Edinburgh exhibition contains a number of dating attribution errors - this meiping to Zhengtong been one such ...
The cited meiping in the Sotheby's 2010 catalogue entry in the Nanjing Museum collection is the same piece - Song Hu (d.1430) a son of the Marquis of Xining, was the husband of Princess Ancheng, married around 1402/03 and therefor son-in-law to Yongle ...
Stuart
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