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Hello all, I subscribed a short while back and have been readily absorbing all of the great information provided by members. This is (obviously) my first posting. I have been in contact with an ebay seller regarding a few of their items. I have been collecting Japanese (mainly Satsuma from Meiji period) for a few years and have never made any expensive purchases without personally handling the item. I am in no way an "expert" even with handling items --so don't get me wrong 🙂 !!! . I tend to just buy what I like.
Now on to what I am really posting about. Can anyone help with their opinions of these 2 pieces? The style of the painting is not like anything I have come across before, and do not recall seeing anything similar while browsing museums in Japan.
Hopefully the links I posted can be accessed. Thanks in advance for your input...Jolene
@Jolene Montano
Hi Jolene,
Firstly welcome to this great forum.
The two Satsuma censers are beautiful and appear to be in great condition etc. However in my opinion they are grossly overpriced. You could easily buy similar from a leading auction house like sotheby's or bonhams for substantially less and have great provenance of said!
The second one being attribute to Kozan may be correct. It's very subjective and you would need the expert opinion of said auctions/ other in order to make sure of attribution.
As you know the current market pricing of Satsuma/other is depressed. In my opinion if either of these were to appear at a secondary auction house they would struggle to reach one third of the price being asked on eBay.
Hope this helps you. Please go to Christie's, Sotheby's and bonhams and search through their database for Satsuma censer and you will quickly see for yourself.
Mark
Hi Jolene,
Very sage advice from Mark @imperialfinegems. Think the seller maybe in a time warp with their pricing. The only thing I can add to Mark's wisdom is that with first class Satsuma the whole of an object was decorated with great care. In the square shaped censer some of the gold gilding looks a little off, to my eye maybe two hands at work here and the perhaps gilt has been retouched especially in the frames to the painted panels.
Cheers
Michael
Thanks for the sound advice. I also feel that these are overpriced as listed, and the seller has offered me a (slightly) lower price. I will check out the other auction databases...
Jolene
Hey Jolene.
Firstly, welcome.
Secondly: listen to those good guys above with the solid advice, they'll save you a lot of money to put towards more elsewhere 👍
You could easily go to, for instance, the big sale from Bonhams this summer where some very nice lots by regarded makers and masters passed through (temporary market scare, other prioritized lots, ect), and probably walk away paying half for a piece with great provenance and more traditional taste.
There's technically nothing wrong with the examples you're looking at; and they're okay for what they are - but for that price if it were me I'd rather get 100 other things on my list before looking at them again.
But that's me, and everybody collects a little differently for preferences!
@brettm pointed out sharply that there could've been gilt re-touching on the first one - and it's quite possible I think.
The application on those cobalt post-Gosu blue late Meiji-Taishō pieces wear frequently, and even if I don't like admitting it, that removes a fair amount of value in itself.
While well painted for its type and sizable, it's clear it was made for export; and what's left of the market tends to lean towards more domestic tastes unless you're a collector of a certain maker - but again, this is your collecting so enjoy what you want to.
As @imperialfinegems said: you'd need an expert to verify that as a Kozan; but while he was known for relief work of high quality =/= him or his hand.
For instance, Chin Jukan (Gyokuzan) is probably the other well known maker in such a style - and this to me could be equally him or a blank by him and for instance decorated by one of his associates Jukatsu Togo, or the many others these well known makers worked with.
They both have museums in Japan, and you can view some of their exhibits for comparisons online.
Though it's never a surefire way to say "no-way" to a piece, the lack of the gourd style Kozan impressed or incised mark would make me tread carefully, along with reading the listing.
The "discount" you're getting is either due to sentimental attachment and over-valuing their items (it hurts to let some things go), or applying a big ol' retail markup larger than Mt. Fuji.
Japanese offers you some flexibility in being a little pickier these days; use this to your advantage - there's some great deals out there.
You said you like Satsuma - maybe look into getting a few different styles, start a small collection with a few pieces from a maker you really like, or use it as an opportunity to switch up the wares (you seem to like Kyo-ware styled, me too - it's my favourite! Maybe check out some Kyoto-based tea ceremony Edo items, or if you like Kozan - check out some of his studio ceramic pieces, they're beautiful and still have a great value in them).
All the above and more, can be done for a fraction of what they're charging.
Best,
-JRN
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