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As the owner of the plates, I can confirm they are not Japanese. Had I thought so, I would have said in my first post. There is a similarity with Yamatoku pieces, which I have often seen described mistakenly as Chinese, but the similarity is only in the thick enamels.
Nice that everyone is interested, makes for good reading.
Julia
@imperialfinegems Yes, my remark about 500+ came off way too snarky than intended. Sorry to everyone for that.
What I was trying to illustrate was 500+ pieces of anyone one matching pattern, let alone in one particular form (plate, bowl, pitcher, etc), is hard to imagine as being possible.
I had purchased an estate that included boxes of blue and white minyao wares, perhaps 1000 pieces in total. Even when the patterns were intended to be the same, there were variation, some quite significant. To have handled 500+ of 'similar' pattern seems a more accurate, but I agree....I was too snarky and I'm splitting hairs over semantics.
We are making assessments using a single photo, and knowing that variation occurs within the production as well as a consequence of reproduction (not modern, but from other countries emmulating a style), I just think one photo, no matter how clearly taken (there I go being snarky again), shouldn't end the discussion.
With that let me say more clearly that I believe my concerns about the plates being Japanese have been proven wrong by an abundance of evidence. And, I am the wiser and better person as a result.
Thanks!
Dear All,
Thanks for the nice and elaborate posts. Thanks for your kind words Mark, i am indeed a bit of a hoarder. @Greeno107 thanks for your nice reply, i can be a bit direct sorry for that too, probably very Dutch. I do not mean it in a asshole type of way....
my 500+ was indeed a reference to similar pieces of this style, so not "normal Qianlong Famille Rose", but this odd type. The thing is i personally do have quite a fetisj for this type of porcelain. Mostly because of the reasons that made you doubt them in the first place. They are a sub category of porcelain that is not really well known, is not fancy enough to be really described in books, yet is very different in its style from everything else. The porcelain is often coarser, not as white and the ennamels are very thick like bencharong ennamels. The colours and patterns are more like a predecessor of Straits ware. They were specifically made for those markets, indonesia, malaysia, thailand etc.
The reason that i handled so many of them is because they are in general not very expensive here in Holland and i was intriqued by them (still am actually). I once bough a lot of more than 100 of these plates from a Dutch Indonesian heritage. Also smaller and bigger sizes and ever since i have found them everywhere here in Holland. No dealer will touch them because they are hard to sell.
So the interesting thing is there is also a lot of related patterns and plates, i cant prove this but my idea is that they were either produced or decorated outside Jingdezhen, maybe Fujian or Canton or maybe part (the stilt ones) were produced somewhere else and part was simply produced in Jingdezhen on blanks.
Around 1780-1850 you get these thick plates from Fujian that were abundant in SE Asia and also found in the Tek Sing cargo etc. The porcelain on those plates is very similar to that on the plates below. However the enamelling is very similar to the plates as shown in this post. Fat, brick, thick overglaze ennamels
I am pretty sure these are a bit later than the plates we discussed earlier but there is certainly a connection there.
Below i will post the plate that really got me into this topic 5 or 6 years ago
So this is the large plate that got me hooked on this sub category. It is the weirdest piece i have ever had. A possibly Stencilled brown decoration. You have to believe me if I tell you the porcelain is more or less the same as on big charger we were discussing earlier. So that is why i have always been keen on buying them and finding our more.
It is really a very odd piece, but in the past years i have been able to find more ans more clues as to the fact that it is indeed also for the SE Asian market. The centre decoration which is very striking holds the clue to this with the vase with the dead branches and the bowl with buddha hand or citron finger fruit . As i later found this Qianlong plate also with this very thick ennameling and vibrant colour (sorry its a horrible picture)
and later i found these 19th blue and white saucers in the Straits porcelain book by Ho Wing Meng.
I know it is a far way from these pieces to the ones we were originally discussing, but it thought it my be nice to explain why i got hooked on these wares.
What might be handy is our (reference) collection, there is a few pieces like these in there. It is pictured on Facebook, front and back of all items. A lot is Amsterdam Bont because thats our passion, but we also collect odd and normal pieces. Bit like stamps. But it can come in very handy for reference purposes and you can use the pictures for whatever you like. Its three albums full some 800 items now and update regularly. I still need to picture a couple of 100 items, but it tends to grow faster than we picture it 🤣
https://www. facebook.com/ShangriLaAntique/photos/?tab=album&album_id=647070988773942
https://www. facebook.com/media/set/?vanity=ShangriLaAntique&set=a.940063846141320
https://www. facebook.com/media/set/?vanity=ShangriLaAntique&set=a.1699207106893653
Best wishes
Freek
Ps Links dont seem to work on the forum so i added a space between facebook and www so you can just copy it
@shangrilaantique The grouping of nine plates are very pretty, so I see the attraction. Now, your brown plate that started you on your journey... fascinating.
The three abundance (peach, citron, pomogranite) is auspicious, and I'm fairly sure you know its meaning.
Is it really brown, or copper red overglazed enamel?
I think their are more hidden messages (rebus) in the design. I'll study further, but did you notice the 'da' character in the center of each of the five chrysanthemums? Maybe just a coincidence, but you know the saying... there are no coincidences.
I did a quck look at the chrysanthemums rendered in blue and white that share that same geometrical design...I don't see the 'da' character.
Thank you, Freek. That was very interesting and some lovely examples. I really appreciate your taking the time to post all that.
I have found the photos that were on here and will post a few close-ups later today.
Julia
Thx for the pictures Julia. They surely are what i presumed. Interesting that one seems to be much brighter white paste than the other. Is that the case in real life as well? I like them a lot.
best wishes
Freek
Yes, one is more of an oatmeal than white. Thank you for your interest and help. 😊
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