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Hi,
What do you think of these, please? They are thinly potted and 37 cms across . They feel like 18th c but I am wondering if they are. I have never seen this pattern/extensive use of green before, it is quite attractive and eye-catching but makes me think of 19th c. There also appear to be stilt marks clearly visible on one base and possibly some on the other, but these are big dishes. One also has the remains of a wax imprint - something to do with export?
I like them and am tempted to bid but thought I would ask here or opinions, first. Thanks for any help.
Julia
Sorry, just having trouble (again) uploading the base pics.
Re-sized them and that seems to have worked - sorry they aren't great but it was awkward given the size.
Lovely plates! Late Qing/Early Republic in my opinion. Possibly for the South East Asia market where they loved colorful porcelain (contrary to the mainland Chinese who preferred a more restrained look). The painting quality is a bit course but I like the overall impression.
Birgit
Thanks, Birgit. I thought 19th c but the wax thing made me think they might be later 19th c if not early 20th. I think you are spot on with the SE Asia market. They also remind me a little of rose medallion colours - another reason why I thought 19th c rather than 18th.
They are very nice in real life, too.
Very nice colors indeed. Makes me remember of peranakan ware, as shinigami said it could be export dishes for the south east asian market . Definitely not 18th century, the colors aren't right for that period. I also think they date from the late 19th century.
Thank you. Definitely a peranakan resemblance. Also, I have a late 19th c famille verte vase and the style of the large flowers on these dishes are very like those but the ones around the rim seem a different style altogether.
It is all so fascinating! 😊
Although these are big I am not sure the Chinese used kiln stilts on plates , even in the C19th, (I know stilts were used in China on certain square form vases to prevent sagging)
one plate definitely looks like it has three stilt marks on the base , so that would suggest to me these are C19th Japanese ;
also there is something about the quality of the porcelain material , grey-ish and a little unrefined, that leans me to Japan rather than China
tam
Yes, seeing the spurs was what really made me wonder about these. They don't feel anything like any Japanese porcelain I have held before, but those marks did make me wonder, as did the messy splashes of colour on the foot rim. I also have a Japanese tea pot with the sort of grey-ish colour you mean. However, on balance I think they are Chinese. It will be interesting to see how bidding goes.
I got them. No one else bid which was a bit of a worry, but maybe the crack or confusing identity put them off.
I have been doing a bit more research and have found similar plates made for the SE Asian market described as 18th c pre-bencharong/Nyonya. Perhaps more interestingly, I found this one at the same size with spur marks:
Maybe they are 18th c?
Hi Julia,
I remembered having seen the style somewhere and I found this plate in the book "Later Ceramics in South-East Asia". I'm sorry for the quality of the picture, taken in bad light, but the original color in the book looks similar to your plates. The painting looks very much the same but more carefully executed, also the plate is smaller. Together with the typical grey body I think that your plates may be a Republic copy of this 18th century pattern. Qianlong can be recognized by the oily touch of the surface, if you have another item from this time you will know how it should feel like.
This is what Gotheborg says about spur marks:
During the first decades of the 20th century a larger proportion of the porcelain than before came to be of inventive and irregular shapes that again seems to have made firing supports - apparently small pebbles - quite commonplace.
Birgit
Thank you, Birgit, that is so kind of you to go to all that trouble. That is clearly the pattern these are copying!
As I said, when I first held them, I thought they felt 18th c, but I haven't tested feeling something Qianlong then holding these to make a real comparison with how they specifically feel, but I will do that tomorrow.
I took some more photos. These may confirm what you suspect. I tried to get some white paper in to show the colour. It reminds me of oatmeal or porridge. I do appreciate your help. Wish you were here, it would be so much easier than looking at my poor photos! 😆
No trouble at all, Julia, I knew it had to be in this special book. If you look at the pink color in the fourth picture you can see the typical late Qing/early Republic bubbles that are so often found in this color. Also the export seal seems to be another clue for that time. A very nice find.
Birgit
I thought the pink might be significant, it is very distinctive isn't it? If the export seal is genuine then I would consider that a good indicator of the age, too.
They are lovely, impractically large so I don't know how long I will be able to keep them, but they were too good a price to pass up. I shall enjoy them while I have them and they have already taught me a lot.
Thanks for your help. 😊
Dear Julia,
I am not sure were everybody gets his wisdom and knowledge from. But these plates you have are NOT late 19th or republic. They are 100% sure 18th century Qianlong. This type of plate is well known and was made specifically for the SE Asian market. You can find them in Holland a lot due to the connection with Indonesia. There are also in multiple museums like the Princessenhof.
The point is most people do not know this type of plate very well, but dont be fooled by "knowledgeable language" about paste color or types of glazing. These type of plates might not be what people look for in Qianlong export wares, but that does not mean they are not. They are in whole category of their own and were most likely made in specific kilns, maybe not even in Jingdezhen.
There is no doubt in my mind here at all.
Best wishes from Amsterdam,
Freek
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