Hi Greeno,

 I see a similarity to a pair of geese I own that were identified by Peter as late Qing. Unfortunately I can’t insert a picture now but he said these animal figures were made in the late 19th century in great variation.

The base looks late 19th C. 

@shinigami

Please post the pics when you have time. I'm curious to see if the example you saw is hand carved like mine, or a moulded piece.

Hi Greeno,

I think your birds were also made with the help of a mould. If you google a bit for Guangxu or Republic birds maybe you might find a similar item than yours.

Thanks for the pics.  Well, those are ducks and my vase has two ducks, but that hardly is a good argument that they are of the same period.

I have searched Google for similar vessels, omitting age altogether so I would get the broadest search possible. However, it didn't produce any similar results, except some Song Dynasty objects, which is kind of why I posted pics to this forum.

Your photo shows the ducks are mounted to a square textured base, and have a hole below the tail, something often seen in mounded figurines from late 19th to early 20th c as you've described. However, I don't see any comparison to my duck vase. Do you?

Vessels with co-joined animal figures were popular in the Song period. As with almost all Chinese designs, from that time on, copies were made. So, I'm in agreement that it is possible that duck vases exist all the way to the 20th c. However, the paste, slip, and co-joined design don't look Qing.

Another thing - My vase is not moulded but hand carved - the knife cuts and irregularities of the foot are visible in my photos in my original post. I think that would be very unusual for late Qing work.

I do think I incorrectly identified the glaze as longquan, but I believe it is mire accurately called Qianbai... the pale blue (sea foam) color should have been my clue - my bad.

Here are som examples of Song Dynasty Qiangbai porcelain foot rings. Similar?

Also, here are 2 examples of Song Dynasty conjoined duck form boxes. The one on the right is called an Iron spot decorated Qiangbai box.  I see a lot of similarity -  If not, what am I overlooking?

Thanks

Hi Greeno,

it was mainly the way the animals are depicted that led me to believe they are late Qing or Republic. And the black painting of the eye doesn’t look old. I possess one of the small double duck boxes you pictured. Mine is from Jin dynasty. It is small (10 cm) and the black mark on the head has all but vanished over time. But I’m not an expert with these items, maybe we can have a third opinion apart from Adrian‘s and mine. 

Hi Greeno,

your posts are a perfect example for showing the reason why I often stress the necessity of first focusing attention to the style and not to technical details.

The second picture alone of a duck, with that style of the eye, in other words the expression of the face, is enough for saying that it is a modern piece.

Absolutely not even 19^th century, imagine how far is from Song dynasty.

As for details, have you ever seen a Song piece with that very black enamel?

Compare the molding of your piece with that of Birgit piece, they are not comparable.

The knife cut foot is normal, it can be seen during any period.

Regards

Giovanni

I stay with my opinion the base looks late 19th C.

Giovanni,

Thank you for your comments. I agree with what you say about focusing on style rather than technical details mostly. When considering age and authenticity of important / valuable objects, I live and die by the rule that it takes only one inconsistency to render an object a copy or fake. But your other assertions fall short.

I do not have experience with Song pieces. But whether  you agree with me about the age or not, I think we can agree that even as a Song piece this vase would have only modest value as a minyan made object (maybe $1,000 or so if it wasn't drilled). If you think that I'm pushing the matter because I'm just looking for affirmation that I've discovered a lost treasure - I'm not. At this point I'd just like to know if anyone has seen something like this before, and if  so, provide a pic and/or offer an assertation of its age.

It's fine to disagree, and sometimes more fun to polk holes in people's theories, but back up your position with some facts and less suppositions. The same is true for me, but I'm relying on what I find on Google, so if I post something unfactual, just let me know.

In my experience, the copies and fakes of the 20th c  always emulate famous (or at least well known) pieces, and are made in abundance. To my knowledge my vase emulates no known famous piece, and of the thousands of modern pieces out there, I haven't found anything like it yet (which is why I posted in the first place).

'Absolutely not even 19th c.'  - The lamp parts were from the early part of the 20th c - The seller sold the piece to me for $100 - there is no reason to believe old lamp parts were put on a modern vase, and the chip on the mouth and accumulation of dirt that I removed makes it hard to accept the vase is modern. Nothing is impossible, but that's a lot of effort to go through for $100.

'Have you ever seen a Song piece with that very black enamel?' Yes - There are numerous examples of Song black ware porcelains in museum collections. However, I have not found any figural Qingbai pieces with the shiny black enamel, but I did find one example of a Qingbai bowl covered in shiny black enamel in the Museum of Eat Asian Art. Photo posting is giving me a hard time, but I'll try again later.

To be honest, the black glaze is what made me originally think the vase was Qing - it looks just like the black enamel used in Famille verte. I think the rendering of the duck cap and eyes also have a late Qing look. However, once again I can't find any Chinese renderings of ducks with that weird black cap.

The more I look at it, the black glaze is a detraction from the vase and could have been added later. Maybe it was clobbered by Europeans.

Taking your advice about focusing on style, conjoined vessels, paired ducks, and Qianbai glaze are consistent with the style popular in the Song Dynasty to Ming, and not so much in the late Qing and early 20th c when artists were focusing their attention to the much more profitable market for famille porcelain.

Pretend there was no black glaze and compare to this Song piece. It's a much nicer rendering than mine, but not similar? (Pardon my screen titles - when I cop the pic, it won't upload for some reason).

cheers!

Dear Greno,

I could answer to any of your arguments, but before please let me ask you about the interior of the vase, which you ahve not mentioned.

Can you shed a light in and take a picture of the interior?

Thank you.

Regards

Giovanni

Prior to your request, I never looked carefully on the inside - whoops.

Here are some photos - the hole in the bottom was useful for getting light inside.  Photos 1 & 2 are inside neck - looks like finger marks to me.

Photos 3 & 4 are inside bottom - when I removed the lamp fixture, I never cleaned the inside.

Last photos show chip to the mouth of the vase, foot ring close up, and semi close up of the carved feathers.

Regards.

Dear Greeno,

thank you but the pictures are not clear, and at least not showing what I was interested to see.

Please look at inside the vases, in the region of the feathers and tail of the ducks. How does it look the inside in those areas? I would not exclude that it is slip cast.

You said that the feathers are hand carved but I do not believe that, it is typical molded, either by pressing by hands or by slip cast in a mold.

And far, really far from being Song. Please find a Song duck molded that way, it is not possible. They are much more lively.

You said that “It's fine to disagree, and sometimes more fun to polk holes in people's theories, but back up your position with some facts and less suppositions. The same is true for me, but I'm relying on what I find on Google, so if I post something unfactual, just let me know.”

What do you mean, that I should find a similar vase dated let say to late 19^th or first half of 20^th century?

Sorry, it is not like that, you are who has to find a similar one from the Song dynasty. I said that the style is not Song, actually much, much far from being Song. If you think that I am wrong in this, please bring up a similar Song example.

You also said that “In my experience, the copies and fakes of the 20th c  always emulate famous (or at least well known) pieces, and are made in abundance. To my knowledge my vase emulates no known famous piece, and of the thousands of modern pieces out there, I haven't found anything like it yet (which is why I posted in the first place).”

Who said that it is a fake? I said that it is modern, it is not emulating a famous piece. By modern I mean after Republic. I may be wrong, it could be a bit earlier, but not so much. BTW most fakes are not emulating famous pieces, they are simply trying to copy oldest styles.

You also said that “Have you ever seen a Song piece with that very black enamel?' Yes - There are numerous examples of Song black ware porcelains in museum collections. However, I have not found any figural Qingbai pieces with the shiny black enamel, but I did find one example of a Qingbai bowl covered in shiny black enamel in the Museum of Eat Asian Art. Photo posting is giving me a hard time, but I'll try again later. To be honest, the black glaze is what made me originally think the vase was Qing - it looks just like the black enamel used in Famille verte. I think the rendering of the duck cap and eyes also have a late Qing look. However, once again I can't find any Chinese renderings of ducks with that weird black cap.”

I really doubt that you have found a Song piece with THAT, and I mean THAT, black enamel. And in famille verte, you can have a very black under the glaze or a black thick enamel over the glaze. You do not have THAT black enamel that you see on the head of your ducks.

And do not have it during the 19^th century either.

“Pretend there was no black glaze and compare to this Song piece.”: it is not possible to ignore the black glaze, it is there, and I do not think that it has been clobbered. Do you think that they are comparable? The color may be, but not the rest, sorry. As said, much more lively.

Regards,

Giovanni

Dear Giovanni and Greeno - 

Just for comparison purposes, attached images are of gray-blue-green glazed incense burner with incised lotus-petals design, the lid with a mandarin-duck-shaped knob, Ru ware, Northern Song dynasty (incomplete).

Excavated at the Qingliangsi kiln site, Baofeng County, Henan Province in 2002. 

Probably not much help, but note how ‘naturalist’ the duck looks ... 

Stuart 

Exactly dear Stuart, more lively.

Regards,

Giovanni