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Sorry for the delay! Here are the photos of the top and bottom.
I've studied this
Another one
I've studied extensively, and the celadon patterns are quite busy. I haven't seen any modern copies of this type.
Has anyone seem or photographed other modern copies of this sort of item?
I guess I was wrong! Giovianni is right, I jumped to conclusions to early and didn't look at it as carefully as I would if I was looking to buy it.
With the extra photo of the bottom it makes it very obvious. The foot rim has been artificially made to look dirty.
Dear Dragonfly,
first at all I must say that I call “modern” what has been made after 1950 – 1970, being it right or wrong.
I know that there are collectible items made also in those years, but that is my attitude, especially for items that are copying previous styles.
Your vase is trying to copy the Canton ware on celadon background that has been made in the second half of the 19th century, but it doesn’t fit at all, especially for the painting style, that is childish, the enamels and the very black contour lines.
Black lines: If I may give you a suggestion, always stay away from items with those very black contour lines.
Enamels: it is not matter of the pictures, because we can see by the white background that the setting of the camera is correct.
Painting style: here below you can see one of your pictures, with two mythical beasts. Please look in the two pictures that follows it how they look in a real 19th century garden stool that I have.
Regards,
Giovanni
Has anyone seem or photographed other modern copies of this sort of item?
No, I haven't. But I can see that Giovanni is correct about the black lines, in fact he has said that on here before and I, for one, completely forgot about that tip. I feel little things like that should be written down so I always have them with me, a checklist, if you will.
I can see why you bought it as I also felt some of the colours were quite convincing, even the unusual border. My real problem was those (horrible - sorry!) faces so I think another thing I will bear in mind is that if something seems wrong, even when everything else is plausible (rather than perfect) one should walk away. If something is having to be explained away, then maybe we have to accept that the item is not what it seems.
Thanks Giovani, I enjoyed reading your response, it was very instructive. May we see a photo of the garden stool, please? It looks interesting.
A rare disagreement but I believe the Vase to be genuine 19th c but overpainted with the mythical creatures and some of the flowers also.
There are a lot of Bowls overpainted with human figures in the market but this is the first Celadon ground piece that I have noticed with overpainting.
I agree the dark black lines are the overpainted areas but essentially the piece is a 19th c original.
Vic
Hi Vic,
I have considered the same possibility despite the horrible decorations and I think that's a natural thing and quite logical to go through options and I got to this conclusion: no, it doesn't have a single feature of a celadon 19th C piece, I just can't see it. Also try and imagine yourself this vase without those creatures that we could state were added later assuming the vase was earlier, then you would have a completely boring piece with just few flowers on it and a bit of foliage - would something like that was made in 19th C? No chance.
My main point stays the same - the composition tells it all without even looking at it from a closer distance - no harmony and chaos, that's against the principles typical and mandatory for Chinese art in general. They did not manufacture items like that in 19th C. That's my humble opinion. Principles, recently I am focused on this while handling Chinese art. If the principles are correct, only then I look if other features are right. This way I find it better and much safer approach in terms of buying Chinese stuff. Why? Because only a really well made copy will be made with respect for principles, so there is much more copies out there that don't have that - it's just faster method of eliminating wrong items. Majority of brutal fakes simply are chaotic and I started training my eye to spot that - aesthetics - that's what I am looking for right now. This way I have a chance of spotting something not necessarily old, but beautiful 🙂
Best regards,
Adrian
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Hi Dragonfly -
Not really my area at all, but Adrian and Giovanni make good points/references to the overal composition, black outlines and painting style of the fish and mythical creatures faces ...
Stuart
All, I have asked Peter for his opinion and will let you know what he says!
I thought the vase was old. But some of the paintings on it seem to have been newly added. For example, the pattern on the mouth of the vase looks like the original. But the animal figures on it were added later.
goxu
All-- I thought you would be interested in Peter's response.
Description: Chinese Famille Rose Celdon Ground Ku-Form vase
Based on the images provided, the porcelain "ku" has all of the elements consistent roughly with the description provided by the auction house. I say roughly as I think it was more likely made during the mid 19th C. rather than the early 19th C. I think what is perhaps throwing some some folks on it's age are the somewhat unusual decorative motifs and excellent condition of the enamels. i.e the Rams, Citron fingers, and other mythical beasts are slightly a-typical, but can be found on other pieces from this period.
The glaze, tonality of colors, foot rim are all consistent with the dating I've suggested above.
I agree Giovanni that I would also love to see the garden seat!!!
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