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Small jar 7 x7 cm - one ring repaired. What do you think Tang- Sung- Yuan or Ming?
David Coles
Very nice! It looks Tang to me. Compare the shape to the Sui/Tang* piece here: https://jianding.shoucangjianbao.com/taoci/suitangheiyoushuang-34188.html
Not quite the same, but close.
*Note also in the Chinese explanation it suggests this is "Late Tang Dynasty style", so I'm not sure why they'd mention Sui dynasty.
Are you able to show some pictures in natural sunlight? If so it would be good to see those.
Was this one of the buried ones? The glaze looks interesting, is it really that ochre color?
I think that form of lug or loop handle appears around the start of the Yuan Dynasty, maybe late Song, I think prior to that the lugs were formed from flat pieces or clay and looped over. It may be the photos but I don't see any indication of a while slip under the glaze, so I assuming it is higher fired porcelain rather than a stoneware also, could you confirm that it is just glaze directly body?
Beautiful jarlet regardless of the age, it is a very nice amber/ochre glaze.
Cheers,
Jeremy
Notice the base especially there the glaze ran over the foot on one side, very simple string cut. I see no indication of slip. Soft - proto-porcelain - light weight.
<Sharon> The color it correct. This is not one of the ones from the dig. But I did buy it in downtown Manila at Ballesteros.
I have been told Tang by some, Song by some and Yuan or Ming. That ocher glaze is common in many pieces and shapes. Some are also spotted ocher.
David Coles
I agree with your comments. But it's not stoneware. I wonder what is the Tang body color and what foot cut. As to the buried ones - ALL the Philippine pieces WERE BURIED.
The stores in Manila etc are just buying from the local people who sell their dug up pieces to a middle man (where I bought) and the middle man sells to dealers in cities.
The first pieces found were found in Santa Ana (near Clark Air Base) in the 1920s during building etc. But some large objects were kept for centuries in s families (The large dragon pots) - See "Oriental Ceramics Discovered in the Philippines." by Locsin. I'm going over the Locsin book and will post some similar Tang types.
David Coles
@musicnus
Hey David,
I actually have been trying to find some examples of jarlets in this glaze so I could compare the foot. I will say that typically earlier (tang dynasty especially) ochre/ amber glazed wares required a white slip to adhere, so the fact that this is lacking it makes me think at least Song Dynasty, definitely closer to porcelain. I will say the way the mouth rim is trimmed slightly angled away and downwards very much makes me think late Song and into early Yuan. And as I said before the tube shaped lugs. I have seen string cut bases on many eras of pots and jarlets, so I really wouldn't know how that corresponds to the dating.
Here are a few examples, sorry no really foot comparison except the Bonhams one, which I must say is kind of what I have always expected in Tang feet, from the three I have seen in person outside of a Museum case. Far from an expert here but just my thoughts.
Cheers,
Jeremy
https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/23984/lot/2134/
https://www.chinese-porcelain-art.com/item/R35/pottery-jar-tang-dynasty-618-906/
https://www.roots.gov.sg/Collection-Landing/listing/1004888
Not the same glaze but the mouth shape and lugs are similar.
Thanks again for good input and research! I did notice that the three seem to have a stoneware body. Mine is not stoneware. I do see the slip required for the stoneware. Your #2 is very finely done - unlike mine which looks like rope-built as we can see with the waves on the side.
I found my Locsin book "Oriental Ceramics Discovered in the Philippines" 1967 out of print. Here are a couple of photos. The first one looks like an exact copy of mine. Look at how the foot is very light. The other brown glaze example has the same shape w/o rings and foot even to the drip! Foot shot is from #2 with is plate #17. Both glazes are lead glazes.
David Coles
Great discussion, all.
David, does Loscin's book give a dating for #22?
The authors agree that Tang wares may well have been in south China, "more discreet to assign a later date and assume that the manufacture of lead-glazed wares of Tang type continued in to the Sung period in some kilns in south China and possibly into the Yuan Dynasty." "...The unquestionable and probable Sung-period ceramics found together with lead-glazed wares in the Santa Ana burials." (Santa Ana was the first areas where pieces were found in the 1920s.) The author doesn't seem to know for sure. He thinks the south China kilns "would have run through the 11th century" two centuries after the end of the Tang period (906BC) and into " the 11th century or Northern Sung period and possibly into the Southern Sung dynasty." These comments are in a section concerning Lead-glazed ware right after the #22 picture and other pictures of a similar glaze, but there is no specific information on #22. As you can see there is a wide range of dates
Finally: "...the general characteristics of the glaze suggest a possible Tang dynasty date for these wares, although we prefer a Sung-Yuan dating." He says because these wares are mixed in with Sung and Yuan dating.
David Coles
Thanks for following up, David. That's all great information. I've ordered that book, by the way, so thanks too for mentioning it.
To be honest I'd actually started doubting my Tang guess based on Jeremy's points about the shape of the lugs and the angled cut of the mouth. I think he's correct about both.
For what it's worth, the color of the paste, the glaze color, and the flat foot were the things that made me consider Tang in the first place.
Craig and Jeremy,
I understand the comments of the shape of the lugs and the angled cut of the mouth. However, that comment is referring to stoneware, isn't it? I've always thought it was more Sung because of the body of the jar. Different body changes everything from stone ware - to a proto porcelain. BWT, the book picture of the jarlet just like mine says it does have a slip. Perhaps I'm missing the slip on mine. When you are dipping a glaze, which is not a thick glaze - They might use the slip in a different way. I noticed that my piece seems to be whitish down to the foot. Maybe I'm missing something or it is going to the end of the slip. Here is the closeup of the book jar closeup.
David Coles
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