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@greeno107 In general I agree with your points, but there are also non-Imperial older examples that manage to still exist in a very nice state of preservation, even though less commonly seen, so that is also important to keep in mind. And not only from being in the sea, other nicely preserved pieces manage to exist. Just because it doesn't happen as frequently doesn't mean we need to throw the baby out with the bathwater by suggesting if something doesn't show significant signs of wear then it must be more modern. That is just simply not always true, which I'm pretty sure you know as well, so I'm confused as to why you would be drawing a line in the sand about it. But maybe I'm misunderstanding your position. I for one don't intend to miss out on making a great find just because the piece has too little wear if everything else about it is right. That would just make something all the more special and valuable, as we all know condition is king. (By the way I am obviously no longer speaking about my jar as this discussion has turned more general).
At any rate, this all reminds me of a shop I was in recently in that had a few very nice 18th c armorial plates/bowls from the same service. Two of the objects had significant wear to the enamels, especially the central design, but one of them was in absolutely perfect condition, as though it was brand new and seemed untouched. Obviously some of the service had been well used but some had not been used at all or very little for nearly 300 years. Personally, I am constantly amazed at how some of these fragile objects we collect have survived so long and sometimes in fabulous condition. At any rate, like every other aspect, wear is one important factor to consider when assessing a piece, but does not override a complete assessment that factors in all relevant components.
"but there are also non-Imperial older examples that manage to still exist in a very nice state of preservation, even though less commonly seen, so that is also important to keep in mind. And not only from being in the sea, other nicely preserved pieces manage to exist. Just because it doesn't happen as frequently doesn't mean we need to throw the baby out with the bathwater by suggesting if something doesn't show significant signs of wear then it must be more modern. That is just simply not always true, which I'm pretty sure you know as well, so I'm confused as to why you would be drawing a line in the sand about it. But maybe I'm misunderstanding your position."
I'm not suggesting you 'throw out the baby with the bath water'. I am suggesting that there is a case, perhaps more strongly, that your jar is not Song... and I have given you my explination - take it or leave it. The arguments so far posted in support of your jar being Song dynasty do not appear to be very strong (you're welcome to disagree).
I am most certainly not drawing a line in the sand over your brown jar, nor suggesting it is modern, but that modern pottery exhibit similar traits, and thus, can not be ruled out.
As far as my methodolgy - many have taken issue with my stictness, pointing to one exception or another as proof that the bar for authenticity that I hold should be lowered. Well, permit me to respond.
Justifying one's opinions on authenticity by holding fast to the belief that there are 'exceptions to the rule' with regards to authenticity, in lieu of the solid evidence provided by known examples, is not a practice I would recommend for anyone who aspires to building a collection of Chinese porcelains if they hope that one day, it will be appreciated by other collectors. Even major museums, over time, have come to find that examples once thought to be of the period, turned out to be more modern.
You're free to choose whatever methods of authentication you wish.
I personally do think this is Asian, probably Chinese, just from the form, especially the treatment and trimming of the foot where it juts out form the body (below are some examples from "Oriental Ceramics Deiscovered in the Philippines). I don't necessarily think its Song, as there were and still are a ton of kilns that produced these a Bajillion brown glazed utilitarian wares, the main span is probably Late Yuan to middle of the 19th century, for that one I'd think Fujian Kiln system is a good place to start. As for the issue of wear, to be honest I shy away from these sorts of pieces if there is none whatsoever, since the chance that its old is far slimmer.... that said, these were often used for a single use, to transport a tea or a fish paste/ sauce and then discarded, so very little shelf wear. The glaze is quite durable and so it doesn't really show if it lived out 200 plus years in a trash pit. I recall a thread on gotheborg where they were in Indonesia and pulling nearly pristine Fujian brown and white( I think) wares out of the ground, all Yuan/Ming. Of course there was grime and dirt and mineralization in cracks and fissures, but overall once soaked and cleaned, you really couldn't tell. So is it Song or Ming or Qing, very hard to say, but I am fairly certain it is Asian.
Just my two cents...
Jeremy
P.S. I am pretty sure there are still kilns that make these for storage purposes, mostly domestic, and so it could well be modern... Also just as a side note the glaze can be just about any shade of brown, literally jet black to light yellow.
@jbeer2121 It seems these are universally challenging to date given their long history. After looking at different options, including Tim's suggestion that it is American made, I'm of the opinion it is Asian and examining it more closely it looks to have some good age, but how much age i lack the expertiseto tell. Particularly this age shows under magnification that reveals more detail that at a glance and from a distance is hard to see, especially on this color of glaze.
@greeno107 I think you might at times be confusing "strictness" with rigidity. I also think at times you are confusing "lowering your standard" with being more open--minded. But as you said, we are all free to choose whatever methods of authentication we wish. In the end, we are all just trying to help each other, so maybe you push a little too hard in your direction while I might push too hard in the other, because perhaps both of us feel the other needs a bit of balancing out. I'm sure the exercise is making both of us more keen in our collecting, so for that I am grateful. Cheers!
@johnshoe "I think you might at times be confusing "strictness" with rigidity. I also think at times you are confusing "lowering your standard" with being more open--minded."
Very constructive, John - nice.
If you go back to my original post, you'll see I critqued your piece, not you. Apparently, if someone disagrees with you, you can't help yourself to lob personal jabs, and this is far from the first time you've taken a swing at me, not just my opinions.
Good luck with your jar.
@greeno107 I think you have a pretty one-sided perception of the exchange. You definitely were critiquing my methods as well, which is fine actually. I can take some of that if it is well intended, which I assumed it was coming from you. I don't always agree with you, but i definitely respect your opinions and always give them consideration. Critisims can help us grow. Sorry to hear you are taking the exchange so personally and harboring resentments. For what it's worth I am not harboring any against you.
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Bonhams are international auctioneers of fine Chinese and Japanese art. We specialise in rare Imperial and Export Chinese ceramics and works of art, as well as Japanese ceramics, fine and decorative works of art from the Neolithic Period to the 20th century. View on map
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