@johnshoe @julia

Well, leave it to Robert McPherson to come up with the answer to our mystery bundle - Shibagaki brushwood.

According to McPherson, "Shibagaki brushwood fencing, referred to as banded hedges when describing English porcelain in the Kakiemon style. Shibagaki is a type of Japanese fence made of bundles of twigs together. It is a common feature of Kakiemon porcelain."

https://orientalceramics.com/product/17th-century-kakiemon-saucer-shaped-dish/

I wonder if that makes my plates kakiemon?

@greeno107 nice! I love learning these things. And because I often forget afterwards then I get the ongoing joy of learning over and over again!

Well, my research seems to be narrowing the age and possible kiln.

Again, Robert McPherson seems to have had a similarly constructed dish that was moulded and has a deep foot, which he dated to the 17th c. (mine is on the left, his on the right).

https://orientalceramics.com/product/a-17th-century-blue-and-white-japanese-porcelain-dish/

As for the design, the double gourd, brushwood bundle, and even the moulded form technique all fall within the taste of Nabeshima ware....

I have no experience with this type of Japanese porcelain, so I realize I'm pulling at straws.  So, if anyone has something to add that will set me straight, I'd appreciate it.  Else, I'm going to send an email out later this week to Christie's and see if they have any interest in the plates.

Thanks.

I would ask Robert... I think he is on Facebook and has a page dedicated to porcelain.

Mark 

@imperialfinegems I don't use Facebook - Is he a friend of yours and this Forum?  His email is on his website.

I know that Nabeshima wares have the tooth-comb design around the foot, but the overall look of my dishes seems spot on for the period... maybe just Arita, copying Nabeshima design.  Again, I'm really out of my league on this one.

I did find that Christie's did sell a pair of small moulded deep plates that seem to me to be quite similar in the attempt to form the vessel in the shape of the painted design.  Sold for a whopping amount, too!

https://www.christies.com/lot/lot-4250873

Hi Tim,

No he's not a friend of mine. I know him from Instagram.

Somebody here mentioned that he was on FB.

I would ask him by way of email. He is very knowledgeable and has a great library.

Mark 

@greeno107 you could ask Peter, he's great with Japanese porcelain. I'm suspecting these might not be as old as you are thinking.

@johnshoe I might do that.  Is there something specific about the plates that suggest a later dating?  This 'bundle' design seems very rare... I only see it in 17th c. work, and only 3-4 pieces so far.  And the manner of the double gourd also seems late 17th-early 18th.

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/49410?ft=arita&offset=40&rpp=40&pos=68

I've been hung up on the comb-tooth design found on Nabeshima.  It seems to be the most common decoration, but there are other decorations, and even the absence of a decoration on the foot/underside.

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/52341?ft=arita&offset=120&rpp=40&pos=153

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/52272?ft=arita&offset=360&rpp=40&pos=384

Here's my foot next to the two MET examples from the 17th c..... I see similar staining, similar black flecks and spots, and similar construction.

But, I'm not 100% committed... still just trying to find the identical plate.  However, I did read that these moulded plates were special orders for the domestic market... might not find an exact match.

@greeno107 it's the exterior design and the glaze tone that looks newer to me, like late Edo or Meiji period.

I am glad you said that John, because when I first saw these, I assumed they were 1930s looking at the decorative style. There is something about the shape being part of the  decoration.  I am sure that has a name when the piece is shaped in the form of that which appears painted on it, but I can't remember. Anyway, to me this pair have the cosy-cottage chintzy look that became so popular in the 20th c.  The plates look like something that might be sold by a department store in the earlier 20th c.

However, I didn't know when that style started so wasn't sure especially when Tim found some similar types. I tried to find earlier pieces too and came up with the bowls below.

I may be wrong, but I don't think the pair Tim bought have the quality of some of the comparisons, but on the other hand, old Japanese porcelain doesn’t have to be top quality and it very often looks younger than it is.

So I am keeping an open mind as to when this pair were made and I hope we find out.  Here's the link, in case you are interested, obviously it is not the same and leaves are an easy one, but the shape is integral to the decoration so given there examples out there, it proves the possibility of an early date to me even if I am not wholly convinced.

http://collections.artsmia.org/art/13599/set-of-leaf-shaped-food-dishes-unknown-japanese

Hi Tim,

I really like your dishes. I haven't commented because I can't quite figure out what you've got there. It occurred to me they might be earlier than early 19th. They certainly are in a style of earlier pieces.  But they could be late Edo as you've suggested. I can add that the pattern on the back is probably taking cues from Ogata Kenzan's "Maple leaves in a stream" design.

Todd 

@julia Thanks, Julia!  I've been looking for the name of the 'molding technique', too, but the best I've come across is that it was a technique that was popularized during the mid to late 17th c., and that it was done generally as a special order for the domestic market rather than export.

I've now searched hundreds of Arita dishes (of all periods), and I have yet to encounter the design other than depictions of 'bundles' in 17th and early 18th c. pieces.  That would suggest these are commissioned pieces.

@watership  Have you come across any depictions of the underside decoration like mine?  Please post if you do.  I'll search today with your suggestion of Ogata Kenzan's 'Maple leaves in a stream' design... that might be the clue needed to nail down the dating.

Something I haven't mentioned is that both plates have foot wobbles, and the mouth of the bowls are not level...they're rather slightly twisted. 

This kind of twisting reminds me of early kiln porcelains like Minyao wares from the late Ming.  Even the surface of the porcelain, which is really quite white, has that waxy looking slip with pits and dimples... very much like Ming Chinese Minyao.  After all, these are small dishes... one would not expect such warping in the 19th c. on such small dishes, so that also makes me think they are earlier.

Do you see how loosely the double blue line is rendered around the foot?  All of the artistic attention was directed at the molded design on the top of the dish.

There are two other aspects of the plates are still somewhat mysterious to me.

The butterflies are rendered very much like early 18th c. Meissen's version of Kakiemon, but I have not been able to find examples of arita with similar butterfly.

Another odd aspect is the extensive use of gold gilt on the mouth of the bowls, the straps on the bundles, and the gourd.  Gold gilt was used on 17th c. pieces, but I don't see it to this degree until the later 18th c.

I feel like I've already got my $20 worth out of these plates in the amount of knowledge I've gained researching Artia porcelains.... glad to share them with all of you, and hopefully we'll figure this out definitively.

I think we are all getting your $20 out of them. 😊 I think they look much nicer in that side photo.

Well, the MET museum has two pieces dated to the late 17th c. that I think offer some additional information.  So, it seems that butterflies are found in a similar manner in the late 17th c. (but I have not found a single winged butterfly like my plates, yet, and gold gilt can be fairly extensive in the design use, too. 

So, not definitive proof by any stretch, but at least I think it can not be eliminated (yet) from possibly being late 17th to early 18th c.

Well, the MET museum has two pieces dated to the late 17th c. that I think offer some additional information.  So, it seems that butterflies are found in a similar manner in the late 17th c. (but I have not found a single winged butterfly like my plates, yet, and gold gilt can be fairly extensive in the design use, too. 

So, not definitive proof by any stretch, but at least I think it can not be eliminated (yet) from possibly being late 17th to early 18th c.