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I’m looking at these two plates. They are listed together but I feel one is Kangxi the damaged dish and the other is 19th Kangxi style plate. Can you guys confirm my suspension on this. The damaged looks more white the painting doesn’t look as stiff. But they both could be Kangxi.
These could be 19th century Bleu de Hue for the Vietnamese market.
Birgit
Birgit is right.
Wanyu appears on Chinese porcelain from the Kangxi period and onwards. The mark shows the characters for (top) plaything/to play and (bottom) jade. The meaning is rather abstract but can perhaps be translated as "jade trinket" or "antique porcelain as fine as jade". The mark first appeared in Kangxi but has been used well into the 20th century.
It is also one of the marks used on later Bleu de Hue porcelain for the Vietnamese market
I'd say they were both 19th c, too. Pretty dishes; shame about the damage.
I’m not sold on 19th century for the damaged plate the shape and white paste and foot is still making me think Kangxi. Here is an example of a Kangxi period dish.
@short-dong So if the same dish hit the market through Hong Kong it would be Chinese but if it came from Vietnam it would bleu de hue Chinese, I'm not sure how that distinction can be made if you do not know where it was acquired? Is it the style? Did it all go to Vietnam?
@short-dong So if the same dish hit the market through Hong Kong it would be Chinese but if it came from Vietnam it would bleu de hue Chinese, I'm not sure how that distinction can be made if you do not know where it was acquired? Is it the style? Did it all go to Vietnam?
That is all way above my paygrade, I just instantly recognised the backmark which is common to rice bowls and the like, and knew it was also found on modern ware. I just knew where to find it quickly to help with the assessment.
I suppose blue de hue is no different than using the term Kitchen Qing. I mean this is more a Frankurt School of critical theory argument and overly rigid categorisations, and I am not really that knowledgable on the underlying methodological approach behind these terms i.e Kitchen Qing and or Hue de bleu. I think Kitchen Qing was a term adopted by 'every day' maylasian people. What organisation or whom agrees the ultimate dialectic determination is beyond me. Kitchen Qing is not as valuable and in my opinion as was the case in Japan where western exports were of a higher quality than exports to dare i say provinical neighbouring countries. As the west has the moola.
As to wether they are Kangxi, on one hand they appear to be a set, one plate does appear to have a different shape, but they have similar backmarks and similar design and similar sizes and possibly shapes. On the balance of probabilities they came from the same era. If one is 19th century than more than likley so is the other. However maybe a fisherman in Vietnam had one of those plates and saw a similar one in the market and decided to make a set, and the second one happened to be Kangxi. Then they were sold to tourist, or vice versa. They got sold as a set thrown togther.
However, based on the distinct nature of the backmark they are more likely chinese Wanyu circa late 19th early 20th century, and as Chinese are less likely to be Kangxi unless they are blue de hue. Yes, there is a chance they are Kangxi, but how can you prove it.
I should provide a link, but really that is all the information it has, other than to get a better look at some of the pictures.
https://www.gotheborg.com/marks/20thcenturychina.shtml
@short-dong Thank you, no further questions, I tender the witness. Good job and I always appreciate references and pictures. Sharon
I did not purchase due to the one being damaged but am interested in learning more about this topic. My understanding is late 19th century pieces are garnished in metal to protect from chipping.
@lotusblack It is a design common to rice bowls and it is hard to find a 19th centiry rice bowl and almost as hard to find a republican rice bowl. They are usually PROC.
Your plates
Here are some examples...
Your back mark and the design are the reason why I think they are connected. If the bowls are as suggested to be 19th Century then tyhey are at the very least rare in the world of rice bowls if that makes any sense.
@short-dong it does make sense. I thank you for you research in this area. One Of the things that amazes me everyday is the different varieties of asian porcelain. I also believe we will never ever see all that has been created. These are study pieces as for many others. I have seen members getting desensitized but we must continue to force ourselves to learn about any piece even if we don’t recognize it. One of the things I like about not being experienced is by bring pieces that I don’t understand gives everyone else the opportunity to learn about all types and styles. I don’t believe in the phase junk items as they help us learn about great items. I have learned just as much from holding modern as I have from holding antique it all helps tell the story of Asian art.
@lotusblack Thanks Brian, Yes I agree, but it is a big threshold. Somtimes I prefer something simple like Nippon or famille rose and venture no further. That is not to say i am not eager to learn and just read a brilliant post about Chongzeng/Shunzi Design and painting style from Ronm and Ming1449 in the Ming box topic. It does inspire and motivate me to learn more. Over the past 500 years, there is a huge array of peices that need to be fit together and if rice bowls helps with that then all the better.
@short-dong I picked up 2 famille rose plaques today. So you might be in for another treat if they are authentic of course.
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