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Is this Yongzheng B...
 
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Is this Yongzheng Blue and white? Or 19th

 
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Yin Hall
 Yin Hall
(@yinchris)
Noble Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 584
Topic starter 30/07/2021 11:31 am  

Beautiful hand painted with details. It has a white paste base like kangxi, and has Yongzheng vibe all over it (still learning). Or later revival copy? Appreciate all the comments. Thank you.

47FAF812 2C3C 4BFD 818C 8F28B1E7C3C8
B6B639AB C614 446E B6F3 9D7BB499BDCC
E27A1B16 2359 4B35 B36A 00405DAA7FF9
F238691B A223 4C5F B3E2 B9FDB3DE75EC
8270485A 2DF2 4CA2 919B B7ED219ADB07
96599285 480B 4F2D 88D3 E617DA35BF23

 


   
Steve reacted
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 Julia
(@julia)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 7231
30/07/2021 2:29 pm  

I am pretty sure not Yongzheng, it looks too bluish, but I just can't decide what I do think. Maybe late 18th/early 19th c? I wish I could hold it and see how it feels.

The shape is puzzling me as I can't tell what it is for so may I ask how big it is, please?  

Just saw you said it is very white - so maybe the blue tinge is my screen. I still think the birds aren't right for the early part of the 18th c, but I could easily be wrong. I really am unsure, sorry.


   
Short Dong, Yin Hall and Sharon P reacted
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 Ming1449
(@ming1449)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 2702
30/07/2021 3:20 pm  

@yinchris 

Hi Yin Chris -

Concur with Julia, painting style, detailing, overall composition, cobalt tone and application all indicate not Yongzheng ...

The shape may indicate either a censer with an interned rim or, possible, alms bowl ... 

As to date, possible late 18th into 19thC, but really not my area and I could well be wrong, so lets wait to see what others have to say ...

Stuart 

 

 

 


   
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Yin Hall
 Yin Hall
(@yinchris)
Noble Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 584
Topic starter 30/07/2021 3:39 pm  

Thanks Julia and Stuart. It has puzzled me as well, what is for? A jar lost its lid?but no neck and opening is too big? Is it opening too small for a alms bowl? Measurement: 5” diameter and 3” tall. 3” diameter for the opening. Here are some pictures I took outside.

9A2E9BC5 811D 43BA 9FD5 BAA4B863A25F
36AC1072 6E46 46AA 8EE5 6DD593E65671
6A86BB30 6C30 4471 9329 C7446898D886
C2C65F3B 0FE3 448C A85F 74A57419D0C2

 


   
William Huvar reacted
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 Julia
(@julia)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 7231
31/07/2021 2:42 am  

I am still none the wiser. Stuart's idea of an alms bowl sounds most likely. As for age, sometimes I think it is a modern mismatch of design elements - also the rushed painting in places; the birds look like they have been shot in flight; the butterfly is large in comparison or are the birds small?  But then it appears to have some genuine age. The foot rim with the brown splodges looks so familiar I feel I must have had something like that before, but I can’t remember what it was or how old, it could have been a 19th c piece. 

So, I shall tentatively stick with possibly late 18th to early 19th but if you are searching online, I would suggest trying to find pieces where the birds are showing their feet like that.  I find that interesting as most birds are not depicted in that position. The style/shape of the butterfly may help - and also the footrim. 

 


   
Yin Hall, Sharon P, Shinigami and 3 people reacted
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 Thomas Johnson
(@thomasumjohnson)
Honorable Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 411
01/08/2021 6:36 am  

It's hard to say with photos but the glaze looks too glossy to me, in which case it could be fairly new, are there any scratches / natural wear to the surface?  If not, or the surface wear looks like it has been added (natural) then it's usually a good indicator that it's fairly new.  Old pieces tend to look a lot more matte, with less sheen.. the painting style looks modern to me also..  


   
Short Dong, Yin Hall, Sharon P and 2 people reacted
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 Thomas Johnson
(@thomasumjohnson)
Honorable Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 411
01/08/2021 6:37 am  

I meant (un-natural)..


   
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Shinigami
 Shinigami
(@shinigami)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 4843
01/08/2021 6:50 am  

The decoration looks recent, the bottom looks late 19th century. Maybe Giovanni, who’s a butterfly expert, could give his opinion. 

Birgit


   
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Yin Hall
 Yin Hall
(@yinchris)
Noble Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 584
Topic starter 01/08/2021 8:25 am  

Thank you guys. Foot rim looks old as well as inside with fritting and circle ring impressed. The shininess maybe because of my camera or soapy water I used. Here is a transitional bowl got from Rob Michiels also shiny.

2DE9E3B7 6E68 4820 B3A0 D34346488F49

 


   
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Greeno107
 Greeno107
(@greeno107)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 2875
01/08/2021 9:21 am  

@yinchris I think your bowl is the bottom half of a vase that has been ground down very finely around the shoulder, perhaps a bottle vase given the round form.

I notice the brocade boarder is unevenly decorated which suggests it was cut down.

Possibly 18th c.


   
Yin Hall and Sharon P reacted
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JOHN LEE
 JOHN LEE
(@jjytlee)
Estimable Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 132
01/08/2021 11:08 pm  

The rim appears to be glazed, rather than ground down.  It could be a brush washer.


   
Yin Hall reacted
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Sharon P
 Sharon P
(@sharonp)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 4504
02/08/2021 12:54 pm  

Still has a rose bowl vase shape to me, although Tim's theory about it being the bottom part of something larger seems a possibility, someone could had added glaze to the ground down top. Are those supposed to be pomegranates or acorns next to the dive bombing butterfly? A nice deep cobalt blue. Sharon


   
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William Huvar
 William Huvar
(@william)
Noble Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 658
02/08/2021 3:18 pm  

@yinchris 

It looks to be 19th century export bowl with a design called ‘Sacred Bird & Butterfly’ . Attached is a photo of my lamped gingerjar with the same pattern. Notice that the jar has the same lattice border pattern as your bowl.

E74FFABC 28B8 4442 8661 894B8330B236

 


   
Ming1449, Greeno107, Yin Hall and 4 people reacted
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Sharon P
 Sharon P
(@sharonp)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 4504
02/08/2021 5:08 pm  

@william Pretty, your piece seems more tightly painted than @yinchris example and your piece has a bigger foot. Those are pomegranates next to his big butterfly.


   
ReplyQuote
Yin Hall
 Yin Hall
(@yinchris)
Noble Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 584
Topic starter 03/08/2021 8:42 am  

@william

I do like the  ‘Sacred Bird & Butterfly’, just wondering when this design started it? 

Thanks Stuart, John, Greeno107, Sharon, Julia, Thomas, Birgit and William. It could be anything from alms bowl to brush washer, to a vase or be grounded. That is the interesting part of the collection- figuring out the past. 

Love Yongzheng period porcelain because of "Peony", here is one:

https://shangrila-antique.com/product/antique-yongzheng-qianlong-18th-c-chinese-porcelain-plate-garden-peony/

The way it draws just like mines.

I have learned so much from the forum that I need look into the color, tone, application, everything like Stuart @ming1449 said, however this peony just hang there.....

 


   
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