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Ming Dish possibly?
I was picking up an old sheffield plate coffee service today for a customer and noticed this wonderful little dish. Immediately thought late Ming, and very nice condition barring the usual rim frits and general wear.
Anyone know the exact age? Or recognize the design?
Jeremy, I would buy that as provincial Ming although the scrolling vine motif has been used for centuries. Only thing missing is the oxidation ring at the glazing edge. Did you manage to procure it?
take a picture with a strong light behind it.
It does have the oxide ring on it. I will shoot a better photo when I get home. I wonder if there are variations in the floral scroll that could date it….
Here are a few pictures of the foot where the glaze ends, slightly orange at the thicker pools and defined edges but not a distinct or hard oxide line. The paste is nearly the same as the Wanli bowl I posted here a week or so ago.
Pardon the blurriness, I am tired and it is late, if need be I can photograph it in the sun tomorrow.
Hi Jeremy -
Attached images/brief description of a dish with similar overall designs attributed to Zhengde period in the Gugong, Palace Museum, Beijing ...
Such dishes were produced by the private kilns in large numbers, predominantly for export to the Philippines, Indonesia and South East Asia, and are now dated late 15th/early 16th century, around 1490’s to 1530’s ...
The painting style on such wares is always very freely/quickly drawn/shaded on such wares but, from the images, yours seems slightly stiffly rendered and rather placed in comparison to the Gugong piece - although this could be the lighting/images ...
Would it be possible to take images of the other Buddhist emblems on the exterior?! ...
Thank you for the comparison pictures! I had not thought it would date that early.
Here are a few more pictures in the sun, the decoration is seemingly looser than I can manage to capture and the white balance on my phone is really making the whole thing seem super blue, it is not quite that blue or gray, just subtly.
I find it funny that when I looked at the back when I first saw it I only noticed that the flowers were different from each other, but never noticed the endless know since I was kind of in a rush, I thought " I cannot believe the painter couldn't copy one flower to the next"... I I set it next to Tongzhi eight Buddhist symbol plate and went about my day without noticing that was the decoration.
Stewart, interesting you feel Jeremy’s bowl a bit stiff in the execution of the painting, I find it very typical of a bowl of this type. Drawn quickly with only the minimum number of brush strokes. These wares were never meant to be examples of fine craftsmanship, production was the goal. I like these items (I think) because of the minimalist painting technique, sort of getting the image across with a simplicity of form. The museum example I think may have been made for some other reason with out production in mind.
Just my thoughts.
Hi Jeremy, Ron and all -
Thank you for the additional images, most helpful. Can you confirm, either in images or txt, which other Buddhist emblems are drawn on the exterior? Personally, I think your piece dates to the later years of this design, so 1520/30’s, but would like to hear others thoughts on this ...
I really like such wares also but, whilst undoubtedly based on the same pattern, there is little doubt that the spontaneity, freedom, detailing and painting style of the Gugong example is significantly higher then Jeremys piece ...
This may indicate an early date, so 1510’s, a higher skilled artist/workshop/kiln or produced for a different market or patronage? I have seen/handled approx six of these dishes over the years, all similar but all displaying differences in overall painting styles/detailing within, cobalt/glaze tones, body finished and footrim/base trimming ...
Whilst composition and/or motifs that proved commercial popular, and therefore had a large/ready market, continued to be utilised for several decades within the private kilns, the painting styles of such did, over time, change ...
Such changes can be seen when comparing similar compositions, or individual motives, from the mid to late 15th century, or similarly from late 15th to early/mid 16th century, or again from the mid 16th to late 16th centuries ...
So if I read your reply correctly. Having several of the same to chose from the earlier one should be the one with the more detailing. I would assume the same would apply to all the other patterns as well, the more detailing the better the chances of it being earlier production. Always learning. 👍
They are hard to make out, but I believe I see the Conch shell?, Auspicious Knot, Dharma Wheel, Lotus, Treasure Vase, Umbrella.
This is all very interesting, I was at first thinking 17th century/ maybe transitional, when I saw it. I still haven't found one that has sold or is for sale with this design, I figured with the quantities made for export wares, there would be a bunch. Out of curiosity, would this be pretty solidly Jiajing, rather than Zehngde?
Hi Ron and Jeremy -
Your reading is, in most part, correct ...
The earlier examples of similar type usually exhibit better detailing/painting styles but there are always exceptions with such wares. This would depend on the market ordered for and, in rarer cases, the patronage/wealth of individual clients ...
Excavated shards/fragments recovered from some of the private kilns at Jingdezhen indicates they were able to produce pieces with the same shape/decoration in differing qualities, the best examples of which exhibited a higher grade of porcelain, painting style, cobalt colour/glaze tone and finishing/trimming. Such pieces may also have been placed in the best kiln areas during firing ...
Thank you and interesting to hear the single/double fish motif absent, which is not unknown on such wares. Although dishes with this overall composition are known, they are less often seen then others ...
As to a firm date, one must allow for some ‘overlapping’ between periods so rather difficult to say - my own thoughts would be very late Zhengde into early Jiajing ...
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