The Chinese and Asian Art Forum. For Fans, Collectors and Dealers.
Basic Rules For the BidAmount Asian Art Forum: Talk about whatever you want. You can even discuss and offer things that are for sale if they are authentic. Maximum image file size per post is 2 MB. Images of 700pxl x 700pxl are optimal if saved at a medium resolution. Be respectful of others and enjoy yourself. Click the YouTube link for a brief tutorial on using the forum. You can also EMBED Videos by cutting and pasting from You-Tube, Vimeo etc.
Ming celadon plate
Hi Cory -
If Kaminski have stated that the first dish listed is 'to be of the late Ming dynasty' then the piece, there knowledge of such wares, or there description, is totally wrong ...
The Longquan kilns went in to a steady decline after the Jingdezhen kilins began to fire excellent copies of the celadon glaze around 1430's ...
The glaze and designs used on 16th/17th C Longquan pieces are very different to that seen on Yuan and early Ming pieses ...
Hi Chris -
An intresting historical text fom the unpublished autobiography of Peter Boode, one of the great early 20th C dealers, cites the following on Song celadons in historical text:-
'the bluish-green glaze of which is beautifully glossy (a few collectors suspected) that the fine state of the glaze is due to the patience of a Chinese in Shanghai, a very skilful old man. He could transform a highly celadon object which was badly scratched into one with a glaze without the slightest blemish, by polishing it. It was done by hand and it took a very long time and his charges were very high, but many Chinese dealers thought it worth while to have the scratched celadons renovated in this way' ...
I have also seen some magnificent Yuan and early Ming celadons, both in the main auction houses and private collections, which are undoubtedly genuine yet totally devoid of any scratches ...
Thank you for clarifying, Stuart. It would probably have wise not to use Kaminski as a reference since I already knew from a concrete episode that they have had borderline-fraudulent activity going on in the past. But now I just did a new search to see if I could find another example for comparison and came across this plate at 'Oriental Art Auction' that matches with base, color and the lotus scroll decoration, etc. https://www.lot-art.com/auction-lots/A-Chinese-longquan-celadon-barbed-charger/290-chinese_longquan-16.11.19-orientartauc But soon after I found an identical entirely modern plate for sale at a commercial Chinese site. https://item.jd.com/71540825603.html#none And another plate from OAA that also has the same base, color and lotus scroll decoration, etc. https://www.orientalartauctions.com/Chinese-Art/A-Chinese-Longquan-celadon-glazed-lotus-barbed-rim-charger With these new discoveries I believe the plate first posted is probably modern and would leave well alone.
Interesting story. Not sure if I would want that done to my items. Reminds me of plastic surgery. Ceramics should be allowed to show traces of real age. The other problem is that you could get problems to resell too pristine looking items.
I almost feel that I have to apologize to the OP for giving the impression that the plates are authentic. But auction ends in just a few hours and there doesn't seem to be much interest about them. The sale of this Han dynasty censer also ends in just a few hours and it seems to get much more attention than the plates even though it does not has an 'age guarantee' in the description like the plates. But as far as I can tell it is most likely authentic. And a very fascinating object but unfortunately not so valuable.
The auction has finally ended. Interest for the plates seems to have increased in the final moments . The larger plate sold for $1250. The smaller plate sold for $800. And the Han censer sold for $750.
These celadon plates are very difficult to assess. Even when I have them in my hands, I can't tell. I've only been comfortable enough to purchase one. That one came from the estate of a local expert called Mary Morrison (one of the founders of the Canadian Society of Asian Arts, a lecturer on Asian Arts at the University of British Columbia, and the curator of more than one museum collections). In that case I have to say I was relying on her expertise when I bought it. That piece had an uneven rim - ie if you put it upside down on a flat surface, the rim would not lay flat - it would wobble. It was also not perfectly round - ie if you measured the diameter, and then did the same 90 degrees around, the two lengths were not the same. The glaze also contained traces of kiln soot (tiny black particles visible under magnification), indicating it had been fired in a wood fired kiln (rather than a modern gas, or electric version).
When ever I see these plates, I look for those types of things
Ironically, I later sold Ms. Morrison's on ebay to a buyer in China. He or she filed a claim with ebay saying it was fake.......lol
If you want one of these plates, I suggest you look for the above, and remain very skeptical. I repeat what I said at the start. After decades in the business, I've only found one I felt was legitimate, and worth buying.
that's an interesting story and could explain the good condition of those pieces.
@avionsunantiques Jesus, I was already wary of these celadon pieces, but now whenever I see one I'm gonna do as Peter likes to say in his videos and "run for your (my) life!"
I agree with Chris, all fakes here but the censer is perfectly ok to me.
Posted by: @johnshoe
“I'm sure they have authentic pieces to study and use as templates anyway, so we should help each other out as much as possible in my opinion. What am I missing?”
Dear John, that is not true. If they are so expert as you think, then why their things are spotted as fake? It is a nonsense, isn’t it? Some faker, a few ones, can do perfect copies of high-end items, but those are meant to be sold through the major auction houses. And they too can be spotted as fake by real experts.
That is not the worrying aspect of the fake market, it will only affect a few people with very big pocket.
The problem is the great mass of fakes flooding the market, and stooling money from many collectors and lovers of these ware.
These are made by not so competent people as you are supposing, and in fact who has knowledge can spot where they are failing. Explaining what is not correct is equal to teaching them how to behave. It is ABSOLUTELY wrong!
What you said, in my opinion, includes two false assumptions:
The fakers are expert. That is not true in almost all the cases, as also not expert are many “experts” of the Auction houses. And in fact they sell fake items here and there. Be sure that they do follow the specialized Forums in order to improve their activity.
Telling what is good and what is not is matter of knowing the “keys”. That is not true, it is not simply matter of knowing and divulging those keys that everybody can distinguish the good and the wrong. It is a bit more complicated.
@clayandbrush Giovanni, then how do I learn more if people like you who know so much choose not to share your knowledge in the forum where we communicate? Do we need to open up a private line of communication? It seems like the best thing would be to give as much knowledge in this forum to as many of us as possible so that we all can recognize the fakes and the authentic ones when they appear. Isn't the real solution to combat fakery by becoming the most educated collectors we can be? That way we won't be fooled so easily by these con artists. Can't we beat them with our superior knowledge rather than trying to hide from them? For example, do you feel you can spot a high quality fake versus an authentic piece? Yes, you do, because others have taught you and you have learned from your experience. But what if others wouldn't have taught you and shared their knowledge with you? Then where would you be? That is why I feel the best thing we can do is share as much as we can with each other. Here's to lifting up authenticity. Cheers!
Hi John, I think teaching is less important in this field than it is in school. You learn about porcelain by reading, going to museums and handling small authentic items that you buy from reliable dealers. You have to do most of the work yourself. Others can help you where you make a mistake. Discussing lots of items found on the web is fun but as a sound basis some studying is important.
I agree with Birgit's assessment, but I do sympathise, John. I too feel frustrated and a little upset at responses that seem to imply someone could tell me more but won't, however much I appreciate the reasons, I can't help feeling shut out and unworthy of this knowledge. Silly, really, but that is me. 😊 😆
If that information were online or referenced somewhere, I would find it myself - as no doubt would fakers. So how do I get to learn this, if I can't afford to keep making mistakes? I like this forum, it isn't intimidating, but if it is here to share knowledge, then maybe we need to find a way around this.
Perhaps we could have a private forum, accessed either by invitation or after a certain number of posts - helpful responses, not just questions - would that work? I feel paid access, like other sites, just invites fakers to an enormous reference library for a small fee.
Dear John and all,
let make an example.
In the proper season and weather conditions, I like to go to the wild woods for picking up mushrooms.
I remember that many years ago, at my beginning in this, I bought some specific books. Then, after reading and looking at the many pictures, I was confident that I had enough knowledge for starting.
But once in the forest, I found several mushrooms which identification was not clear. Brought them at home, and checking the book, at a certain point I said “it must be this one”. But turning other pages, “hey, this too is very similar”, and “this other one too!”. Totally uncertain.
But now, after years, if I spot from distance a perfectly white mushroom partially hided by grass, I know immediately that it is the X type and not the Y type despite both them are perfectly white and the shape is not visible because of the grass.
Why that is impossible to answer. For sure our brain elaborates, in a fraction of time and without ourself being conscious of that, all the accumulated experience and knowledge, the habitat, the weather conditions, etc.
The conclusion is what said by Birgit: a personal experience is necessary. Many pieces must be handled and seen in real. Museums, auctions, and yes, also information shared by knowledgeable people, but associated to the previous ones. It needs time. It is not matter of only knowing the “keys”.
Of course every expert have some “key”, some of which are even personal conviction/deduction and may be right or wrong, but also to them those are not definitive keys, they works only if associated to the rest.
Then, in most cases, it is also difficult to exactly tell why a piece is genuine, as it is difficult for a specialized book to tell why a mushroom is X and not Y species. Once you know it, had experience with it, then the classification is clear.
I know, it is frustrating, but there are no shortcuts, time is necessary.
The mushrooms are a good example, Giovanni. Or, as I read somewhere: You always know your friends and relatives, though they wear different clothes every day and even if they are disguised with sunglasses or a hat.
Thanks for visiting "The BidAmount Asian Art Forum | Chinese Art"
If you sell on eBay, or have a shop feel free to post images and descriptions and links.
Check back often for discussion about the latest news in the Chinese art and antique world. Also find out about the latest Asian art auctions at Sotheby's, Christie's, Bonhams and Tajans.
Auction results for: fine porcelain, ceramics, bronze, jade, textiles and scholar's objects. As well as Japanese, Thai, Vietnamese and other Asian cultures.
Topics and categories on The BidAmount Asian Art Forum | Chinese Art
Kangxi vases, Kangxi dishes and chargers, Kangxi ritual pieces, Kangxi scholar's objects, Qianlong famille rose, Qianlong enamels, Qianlong period paintings, Qianlong Emporer's court, Fine porcelain of the Yongzheng period. Chinese imperial art, Ming porcelain including Jiajing, Wanli, Xuande, Chenghua as well as Ming jades and bronzes.
The BidAmount Asian Art Forum | Chinese Art
A free Asian art discussion board and Asian art message board for dealers and collectors of art and antiques from China, Japan, Korea, Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam and the rest of Asia. Linked to all of the BidAmount Asian art reference areas, with videos from plcombs Asian Art and Bidamount on YouTube. Sign up also for the weekly BidAmount newsletter and catalogs of active eBay listing of Chinese porcelain, bronze, jades, robes, and paintings.
The art of calligraphy - and for the ancient Chinese it certainly was an art - aimed to demonstrate superior control and skill using brush and ink. Calligraphy established itself as one of the major Chinese art forms during the Han dynasty (206 BCE - 220 CE), and for two millennia after, all educated men were expected to be proficient at it.
The Museum’s collections of Asian art span nearly five millennia and encompass the cultures of China, the Himalayas, India, Japan, Korea, and Southeast Asia. In 2007, the Museum launched an initiative to create dedicated galleries for the collection, beginning with a gallery for the arts of Korea ...
Chinese art is full of symbolism, in that artists typically seek to depict some aspect of a totality of which they are intuitively aware.
China Online Museum is the finest online museum of Chinese art. It features Chinese calligraphy, painting, ceramics, bronzes, carving, and other artworks.
Chinese Ceramics & Works of Art. Overview Upcoming auctions Contacts Auction results ... Christie’s sales of Chinese ceramics and works of art showcase centuries of Chinese history. Held throughout the year in London, New York, Paris and Hong Kong, they attract a wide audience of collectors and connoisseurs vying for pieces as diverse as ...
Explore Asian Art Week. Contact the Specialist Department. Chinese Paintings ... Senior Specialist, Head of Sale. firstname.lastname@example.org. Tel:+1 212 641 5760. Bid in-person or online for the upcoming auction:Fine Chinese Paintings on 10 September 2019 at New York. Bid in-person or online for the upcoming auction:Fine Chinese Paintings on 10 ...
Discover an abundance of must-see art from all corners of a vast continent at Christie’s NY Asian Art Week. From contemporary classical and Chinese paintings to works with exemplary provenance from the Art Institute of Chicago, our Rockefeller Paza galleries will be full of ancient treasures and contemporary masterworks in a salute to the vibrant arts of Asia.
Sold to benefit The Art Institute of Chicago’s Asian Art Acquisition Fund, the sale features 84 lots with a focus on Ming and Qing porcelains, and offers a rare insight into the taste for collecting Chinese ceramics and works of art in the Midwest from the end of the 19th century through the 1980s. Highlights include two Wanli wucai garlic-head vases, a Qianlong mark and period, blue and ...
Specialist, Chinese Paintings, Christie's London Dr Malcolm McNeill is a Specialist in Chinese Paintings at Christie’s, based in London. He previously worked as an assistant curator of the Chinese collections and the Victoria and Albert Museum in London, as a researcher at the British Museum, and as a translator and tour guide at the National Palace Museum in Taipei.
The Christie's Education 2020 Conference: The Chinese Art Market 18 Jun 2019 Christie’s Education is delighted to announce our first international academic conference in Asia which will take place in Hong Kong from 26-27 November 2020 at the Hong Kong Convention and Exhibition Centre and will run in parallel with Christie’s Hong Kong Autumn Auctions.
The summer Chinese Art sale in Hong Kong will feature works of art from several private collections, including Qing porcelains and textile from the collection of the legendary Chinese art dealer A. W. Bahr (1877–1959), fine gilt bronze Buddhist sculptures from an old Hong Kong collection, an East Asian collection of Qing dynasty wine cups and jades, and a Japanese collection of Song ceramics ...
Sotheby's Chinese Works of Art Department holds two auctions each year in London, New York, Hong Kong and Paris.
Chinese Art - View Auction details, bid, buy and collect the various artworks at Sothebys Art Auction House.
With more than 340 Chinese works of art dating from the Neolithic to the Republic periods, highlights of this sale include a selection of Qing Imperial monochromes from the collection of Arnold and Blema Steinberg, early ceramics from the Art Institute of Chicago and Chinese porcelain and works of art from the collection of Henry Arnhold.
Results: Sotheby's Asia Week achieved $52.4 million in six strong auctions, exceeding pre-sale estimates. With 76.5% of lots sold and 60.3% of lots surpassing high estimates, the Asian art sales at Sotheby's indicate continued collector interest in the finest works of art from China, India and and the Himalayas.
Today's sale of Important Chinese Art will proceed as planned with sessions at 10 AM and 2 PM EDT. Sotheby's will be monitoring the weather conditions throughout the day and will be available to coordinate alternative bidding options should conditions make it difficult for clients to attend the auction in person.
Bonhams Chinese Art department is renowned for offering the finest works of art representing the richness and breadth of China's artistic heritage, particularly Imperial porcelain, white and spinach green jades, cloisonné and Buddhist art. Specialised international auctions are held globally, including London, Hong Kong and San Francisco.
Bonhams are international auctioneers of fine Chinese and Japanese art. We specialise in rare Imperial and Export Chinese ceramics and works of art, as well as Japanese ceramics, fine and decorative works of art from the Neolithic Period to the 20th century. View on map