@avatar 

Hi Cory -

If Kaminski have stated that the first dish listed is 'to be of the late Ming dynasty' then the piece, there knowledge of such wares, or there description, is totally wrong ...

The Longquan kilns went in to a steady decline after the Jingdezhen kilins began to fire excellent copies of the celadon glaze around 1430's ...

The glaze and designs used on 16th/17th C Longquan pieces are very different to that seen on Yuan and early Ming pieses ... 

Stuart 

@chris71 

Hi Chris - 

An intresting historical text fom the unpublished autobiography of Peter Boode, one of the great early 20th C dealers, cites the following on Song celadons in historical text:- 

'the bluish-green glaze of which is beautifully glossy (a few collectors suspected) that the fine state of the glaze is due to the patience of a Chinese in Shanghai, a very skilful old man. He could transform a highly celadon object which was badly scratched into one with a glaze without the slightest blemish, by polishing it. It was done by hand and it took a very long time and his charges were very high, but many Chinese dealers thought it worth while to have the scratched celadons renovated in this way' ...

I have also seen some magnificent Yuan and early Ming celadons, both in the main auction houses and private collections, which are undoubtedly genuine yet totally devoid of any scratches ...

Stuart 

Thank you for clarifying, Stuart. It would probably have wise not to use Kaminski as a reference since I already knew from a concrete episode that they have had borderline-fraudulent activity going on in the past. But now I just did a new search to see if I could find another example for comparison and came across this plate at 'Oriental Art Auction' that matches with base, color and the lotus scroll decoration, etc. https://www.lot-art.com/auction-lots/A-Chinese-longquan-celadon-barbed-charger/290-chinese_longquan-16.11.19-orientartauc But soon after I found an identical entirely modern plate for sale at a commercial Chinese site. https://item.jd.com/71540825603.html#none And another plate from OAA that also has the same base, color and lotus scroll decoration, etc. https://www.orientalartauctions.com/Chinese-Art/A-Chinese-Longquan-celadon-glazed-lotus-barbed-rim-charger With these new discoveries I believe the plate first posted is probably modern and would leave well alone.

@ming1449

Interesting story. Not sure if I would want that done to my items. Reminds me of plastic surgery. Ceramics should be allowed to show traces of real age. The other problem is that you could get problems to resell too pristine looking items. 

I almost feel that I have to apologize to the OP for giving the impression that the plates are authentic. But auction ends in just a few hours and there doesn't seem to be much interest about them. The sale of this Han dynasty censer also ends in just a few hours and it seems to get much more attention than the plates even though it does not has an 'age guarantee' in the description like the plates. But as far as I can tell it is most likely authentic. And a very fascinating object but unfortunately not so valuable.

The auction has finally ended. Interest for the plates seems to have increased in the final moments . The larger plate sold for $1250. The smaller plate sold for $800. And the Han censer sold for $750.

These celadon plates are very difficult to assess.   Even when I have them in my hands, I can't tell.   I've only been comfortable enough to purchase one.   That one came from the estate of a local expert called Mary Morrison (one of the founders of the Canadian Society of Asian Arts, a lecturer on Asian Arts at the University of British Columbia, and the curator of more than one museum collections).   In that case I have to say I was relying on her expertise when I bought it.     That piece had an uneven rim - ie if you put it upside down on a flat surface, the rim would not lay flat - it would wobble.    It was also not perfectly round - ie if you measured the diameter, and then did the same 90 degrees around, the two lengths were not the same.    The glaze also contained traces of kiln soot (tiny black particles visible under magnification), indicating it had been fired in a wood fired kiln (rather than a modern gas, or electric version).

When ever I see these plates, I look for those types of things

Ironically, I later sold Ms. Morrison's on ebay to a buyer in China.    He or she filed a claim with ebay saying it was fake.......lol

If you want one of these plates, I suggest you look for the above, and remain very skeptical.    I repeat what I said at the start.   After decades in the business, I've only found one I felt was legitimate, and worth buying.

@ming1449

Hi Stuart,

that's an interesting story and could explain the good condition of those pieces. 

Chris

@avionsunantiques  Jesus, I was already wary of these celadon pieces, but now whenever I see one I'm gonna do as Peter likes to say in his videos and "run for your (my) life!"

Dear all,

I agree with Chris, all fakes here but the censer is perfectly ok to me.

Posted by: @johnshoe

“I'm sure they have authentic pieces to study and use as templates anyway, so we should help each other out as much as possible in my opinion. What am I missing?”

Dear John, that is not true. If they are so expert as you think, then why their things are spotted as fake? It is a nonsense, isn’t it? Some faker, a few ones, can do perfect copies of high-end items, but those are meant to be sold through the major auction houses. And they too can be spotted as fake by real experts.

That is not the worrying aspect of the fake market, it will only affect a few people with very big pocket.

The problem is the great mass of fakes flooding the market, and stooling money from many collectors and lovers of these ware.

These are made by not so competent people as you are supposing, and in fact who has knowledge can spot where they are failing. Explaining what is not correct is equal to teaching them how to behave. It is ABSOLUTELY wrong!

What you said, in my opinion, includes two false assumptions:

The fakers are expert. That is not true in almost all the cases, as also not expert are many “experts” of the Auction houses. And in fact they sell fake items here and there. Be sure that they do follow the specialized Forums in order to improve their activity.

Telling what is good and what is not is matter of knowing the “keys”. That is not true, it is not simply matter of knowing and divulging those keys that everybody can distinguish the good and the wrong. It is a bit more complicated.

Regards,

Giovanni

@clayandbrush  Giovanni, then how do I learn more if people like you who know so much choose not to share your knowledge in the forum where we communicate? Do we need to open up a private line of communication? It seems like the best thing would be to give as much knowledge in this forum to as many of us as possible so that we all can recognize the fakes and the authentic ones when they appear. Isn't the real solution to combat fakery by becoming the most educated collectors we can be? That way we won't be fooled so easily by these con artists. Can't we beat them with our superior knowledge rather than trying to hide from them? For example, do you feel you can spot a high quality fake versus an authentic piece? Yes, you do, because others have taught you and you have learned from your experience. But what if others wouldn't have taught you and shared their knowledge with you? Then where would you be? That is why I feel the best thing we can do is share as much as we can with each other. Here's to lifting up authenticity. Cheers!

Hi John, I think teaching is less important in this field than it is in school. You learn about porcelain by reading, going to museums and handling small authentic items that you buy from reliable dealers. You have to do most of the work yourself. Others can help you where you make a mistake. Discussing lots of items found on the web is fun but as a sound basis some studying is important. 

I agree with Birgit's assessment, but I do sympathise, John. I too feel frustrated and a little upset at responses that seem to imply someone could tell me more but won't, however much I appreciate the reasons, I can't help feeling shut out and unworthy of this knowledge.  Silly, really, but that is me. 😊 😆

If that information were online or referenced somewhere, I would find it myself - as no doubt would fakers. So how do I get to learn this, if I  can't afford to keep making mistakes?  I like this forum, it isn't intimidating, but if it is here to share knowledge, then maybe we need to find a way around this.

Perhaps we could have a private forum, accessed either by invitation or after a certain number of posts - helpful responses, not just questions - would that work? I feel paid access, like other sites, just invites fakers to an enormous reference library for a small fee. 

Dear John and all,

let make an example.

In the proper season and weather conditions, I like to go to the wild woods for picking up mushrooms.

I remember that many years ago, at my beginning in this, I bought some specific books. Then, after reading and looking at the many pictures, I was confident that I had enough knowledge for starting.

But once in the forest, I found several mushrooms which identification was not clear. Brought them at home, and checking the book, at a certain point I said “it must be this one”. But turning other pages, “hey, this too is very similar”, and “this other one too!”. Totally uncertain.

But now, after years, if I spot from distance a perfectly white mushroom partially hided by grass, I know immediately that it is the X type and not the Y type despite both them are perfectly white and the shape is not visible because of the grass.

Why that is impossible to answer. For sure our brain elaborates, in a fraction of time and without ourself being conscious of that, all the accumulated experience and knowledge, the habitat, the weather conditions, etc.   

The conclusion is what said by Birgit: a personal experience is necessary. Many pieces must be handled and seen in real. Museums, auctions, and yes, also information shared by knowledgeable people, but associated to the previous ones. It needs time. It is not matter of only knowing the “keys”.

Of course every expert have some “key”, some of which are even personal conviction/deduction and may be right or wrong, but also to them those are not definitive keys, they works only if associated to the rest.

Then, in most cases, it is also difficult to exactly tell why a piece is genuine, as it is difficult for a specialized book to tell why a mushroom is X and not Y species. Once you know it, had experience with it, then the classification is clear.

I know, it is frustrating, but there are no shortcuts, time is necessary.

Regards,

Giovanni

The mushrooms are a good example, Giovanni. Or, as I read somewhere: You always know your friends and relatives, though they wear different clothes every day and even if they are disguised with sunglasses or a hat.