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Hi everyone,
I am new on the forum, I would like to have your opinion on this plate, do you think it could be an antique one? or a fake new as I am not sure about the color of the celadon and of the unglazed part of the rim.
Thank you in advance,
Thomas
@thomas deguen,
Welcome to this great forum.
Unfortunately I know little about these ming style wares. My area is jades and republic period porcelain.
However I suspect your dish is a modern interpretation. I believe this because there is absolutely no wear/other on the glaze. Also the stacking mark on the reverse looks to my eye to be manufactured.
I could of course be totally wrong in my thinking. So it's best to wait for other thoughts/opinions from members who are more familiar with this type of wares etc.
Very nice and detailed pictures by the way. 👍
Mark
Just adding a few additional pictures for the fun of it. I know who the seller is and for the time I've followed him he has listed some very interesting and potentially very valuable items but he also has fakes mixed in so be careful.
The plate is authentic I think but I'm not 100% certain. The color is correct for longquan as is the thinning of the glaze at the rim. Being 51 cm across it is rather impressive and and potentially very valuable. The smaller longquan plate he has for sale seems to have more wear to the glaze.
Here are some pictures of the other plate. Only 35cm across but still nice. In the last picture you can just slightly notice the wear of the glaze.
Agree with Mark, both plates look modern, no traces of age.
Birgit
Hi Thomas - and as with Mark, welcome to this wonderful forum ...
Looking at the images, I would concur with Mark and Birgit, this dish appears rather modern, IMO ...
The execution of the central interlocking cash lozenge design and the lotus scrolls to the cavetto and exterior look far to stiff when compared with genuine examples, and glaze surface seems to lack the tiny faults often seen on such wares ...
The unglazed base ring is where the dish was supported during firing. This piece displays some issues in this feature but, as this is an open forum, I will not divulged these ...
I would only add that the celadon-glaze on authentic examples displays wide tonal variation in colour ...
But just my thoughts and, as with Mark, I could well be wrong so lets wait and hear others opinions ...
Stuart
@ming1449 I have seen similar things said a few other times since joining the forum regarding not sharing certain things publicly about how to distinguish between authentic and fake. This seems odd to me. Why would we not share as much as possible with each other. Because fakers might be watching? I'm sure they have authentic pieces to study and use as templates anyway, so we should help each other out as much as possible in my opinion. What am I missing?
While we wait for others opinion I thought I would post some examples for comparison. This one from Kaminski, which is supposed to be a reputable auction house, compares well with color and base etc. (Interestingly that one appear in different color on some of the picture which might be due to change of tone in different lightning situations.) https://auctions.kaminskiauctions.com/chinese_large_longquan_celadon_charger-lot23652.aspx And this one from Bonhams also compares with color to some degree and seems to lack the wide tonal variation in color Stuart talks about. https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/24819/lot/8094/?category=list And to my experience longquan ware can appear in perfect condition without any wear like scratches an discoloration even though they are more than 500 years old. That is also the impression you get when to look at the pictures of longquan pieces at Christie's and Sotheby's. Now I'll see if I can find a longquan plate with a cash-pattern that matches.
@avatar This celadon stuff seems very tricky to know the difference between old and new. The more I learn about it the more I feel like I would not buy any without first handling many real and fakes and having a clear understanding of the nuances between them. And then if and when I do buy one I think it will have to be after handling it first. Pictures can be misleading with lighting variation, etc. I suppose top experts could tell from pictures alone,but for mortals like me, that seems too risky with these wares.
Another plate from Kaminski that also has a rather stiff cash pattern and lotus scroll and also compares with the base and the barbed rim and the the color matches well with the smaller plate on sale. Good size also. https://auctions.kaminskiauctions.com/Large_Chinese_Longquan_Porcelain_Charger-LOT27711.aspx?utm_source=barnebys&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=barnebys&utm_content=2019-06-01
The seller with plates also has this longquan censer on sale that leaves you with little doubts about authenticity. It is also stated to have an 'age guarantee' in the description. Unfortunately it is not so valuable. Nice that it comes with a box though.
Kaminski didn’t give an age for their plate and they probably knew why. To me at least it looks as recent as the others in question, the censer included, but I’m no expert for this kind of ware.
We can assume that the Bonhams one is the real stuff, unfortunately there’s just one picture.
Birgit
@ Mark and shinigami, thank you very much for your answer and the tips about tonal variation
Hi everyone,
I'm not sure about the plates. Due to the thickness of these plates, they often have no damage and can look like new, with only some scratches. You can find several authentic Ming pieces in reputable auction houses like Christie's, Sotheby's, etc. , that look very shiny and new. But those are very rare. But it is always good, to handle these personally to be sure. So I have doubts about the plates, but the tripod Longquan censer is definitely a real one from the Ming Dynasty (15./16. century).
Chris
I hadn't noticed that Kaminski hadn't dated the second plate of theirs I linked to. I would have to agree that there is reason to worry as I have seen this practice done by them before, listing a brand new fake with no dating in the description. But the first plate I linked to is stated to be of the late Ming dynasty so this would have to be authentic otherwise they would jeopardize their reputation. But I'm sure you can find other examples that matches well and from more reliable sources if you search around on google. These were just the two examples that I found to be best for comparison when I did a search.
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