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Ming Celadon?
 
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Watership
 Watership
(@watership)
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Topic starter 28/02/2022 4:26 am  

Does this look Ming? I don’t have experience with this type. 
Thanks, Todd

9E358DA4 A3A3 4F87 83D8 302348A8D868
EDAAC63B 751F 4E30 9A58 4FC3545837B2
2BA39F43 43A3 4FDF 9407 682761AA5FE4
C0BF675D 9477 4094 B4CA 4A07275EE800
80FA21C5 D820 41F8 9EC4 0971FCC074EC
C230F0C4 64AC 4EEA BDA3 0985932AF72B
DBD46B4B 984E 43F7 8F33 AA31345BE9C5

take it with a grain of salt


   
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 Ming1449
(@ming1449)
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28/02/2022 1:25 pm  

@watership 

Hi Todd - 

This vessel form/shape is seen on Yuan and early/mid Ming pieces, attached images of two examples of type held in the Gugong, Palace Museum, Beijing ... 

However, I have never seen this central overlapping petal/leaf on a Chinese Longquan piece before, and the pale bluish glaze tone is also most unusual for such types? ...

These Longquan pieces had an enormous influence on the potters/kilns they were exported to, been widely copied in the Middle/Near East, throughout South East Asia and also Japan ...

Japan especially produce very close copies, in terms of form, shape and glaze tones, both of Song and Yuan/Ming wares ...

Stuart 

 

C14A91C4 565F 429F A44E 48539DD3089C
24CC2EB4 EA0B 4545 8692 46FAD01E3B64
65213A0E 941D 4C97 B1A9 01E34F3ECBBA
80F06712 49D7 48F2 B21C AFF3CA723F2E

   
AL Boo, William Huvar, Watership and 2 people reacted
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 AL Boo
(@superox)
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01/03/2022 7:15 pm  

@ming1449 Often, with my longguan pieces, I tend to lump them from Song to Ming and not knowing that there are copies and I am sure variations that an expert like you can decipher!  Its part of the journey right ?  This is so informative.


   
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 Ming1449
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02/03/2022 8:54 am  

@watership @superox 

Hi Todd, Al and all - 

The forms/shapes of Longquan pieces produced in the Song Dynasty, especially the Southern period, are general smaller and are usually covered with a lighter bluish/green glaze. Such wares conformed to Song ascetic tastes ... 

It was only during the Yuan dynasty that much larger pieces, dishes/bowls and vases were produced, mostly covered in various green glaze tones. These were predominantly for export to the Middle/Near East but also India, Africa, the whole of South East Asia and Japan ...

Copies of Chinese Longquan glazes types have a long history in the countries they were exported to. Some articles on/ images of such attached ... 

Stuart 

1B3FF17B 658A 4DA0 8E0A 23BD252EEB39
ABFA8F32 51CF 404B 8DE3 A9A4E735080F
36EB6310 6A2A 434E A102 41FC3EC2D73F
58862C0F 9487 4DF7 B62A 4E30474DE9E5
6363FF93 74B2 4697 99A7 63BB6B885802
762B2DB3 3CF2 4E71 9074 299937FBD912
0E5818A3 C229 41A1 8B18 9B4C9B7D4078
54D46E1F E1D7 4813 9DAA 9132D5483327
FE2F0359 BB9F 4082 A0EF C5E01CEBEC16
C538D2F9 F2EC 4A34 A25A 87439CF54283
0C4B5D52 EA87 40E8 8E21 3C7889F225F0
18261B3F 7230 49F5 9D42 823D50FE34E2
6E5342A7 3945 4AC8 B25E 7F20B1F9DDBC
E63411D7 118B 408F 9EEF 7B037C0D129D
E078266C 30E4 4512 A3C6 197A9DC80C33

   
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Watership
 Watership
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Topic starter 02/03/2022 9:47 am  

Hi Stuart,

Thanks so much. Lots of good information. Seems there are many origins and possibilities. My best guess, although not based on too much, is Japanese Edo. I guess this is a difficult area. It is a nice piece, regardless of age/origin, for my taste. I assume its not modern. I may put in a modest bid. 

take it with a grain of salt


   
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(@avatar)
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03/03/2022 6:47 am  

That celadon piece would most likely be Chinese and probably date to the Ming dynasty IMO. Glaze color and texture, etc. is correct. I've found comparable examples. Is it on sale somewhere?


   
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03/03/2022 9:36 am  

As an example.

https://www.christies.com/lot/a-rare-pale-celadon-glazed-shallow-bowl-dated-6147422/?from=salesummary&intObjectID=6147422&lid=1


   
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 Ming1449
(@ming1449)
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03/03/2022 10:55 am  

@watership @avatar

Hi Todd and Cory - 

Certainly not 16th century Ming, the decoration, glaze tone and inclusion exterior ridge/line towards the base discount such an attribution ...

Throughout the 15th century incision remained the most common method of decoration, but the Longquan potters/kilns seemed unable to match the blue/white wares from Jingdezhen and quality gradually deteriorated towards the end of 15th century. The decoration  become more schematic/simplified, the body thicker, the glaze thinner and more transparent and the designs hurriedly executed ...

Stuart 

 


   
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03/03/2022 11:17 am  

Then maybe it's Ming 14th century or perhaps even older than that?


   
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 Ming1449
(@ming1449)
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03/03/2022 1:45 pm  

@watership @avatar 

Hi Todd, Cory and all -

As mentioned, the central  overlapping petal/leaf design is, as far as I'am aware, unknow on Chinese Longquan pieces and the  tone of the blueish glaze, along with the exterior ridge/line excludes any attribution to Song, Yuan or Ming ...

I have through the published  Longquan dishes in the collections of the Topkapi Saray, Istanbul, the Gugong, Palace Museum, Beijing and also the Sinan wreck, datable to 1323, and have found nothing comparable - so far ...

I know very little regarding later Japanese copies of these wares, so will defer to Todd's thoughts on a possible dating attribution ...

Stuart 


   
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06/03/2022 12:59 am  

 

longquan
55889 EDAAC63B 751F 4E30 9A58 4FC3545837B2

A Longquan jar with with the exact same tone and texture as the piece in focus. The tone of the glaze  piece in focus of the piece in focus is correct. Just because there are known published Longquan pieces with the same design of overlapping petals does not mean that it does not exist. I still think that this piece is Chinese and most likely dates to the Ming dynasty. What is the piece described as by the seller??


   
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Watership
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Topic starter 06/03/2022 6:53 am  

Here is the listing:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/294832229418

take it with a grain of salt


   
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06/03/2022 8:44 am  

Thank for sharing. I got a very nice high value Yuan Longquan gourd vase in from Japan last year with a light blue glaze misrepresented as Korean by the seller. Tone is slightly different but the unglazed foot-ring shows the same white (sand-coloured) paste as the plate on eBay.


   
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 Ming1449
(@ming1449)
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06/03/2022 11:52 am  

The lotus petals, especially those on the bowl, posted are very stiff and stereotyped, totally lacking the individualality, subtletie and freedom seen on authentic Song, Yuan and Ming pieces ...

Very difficult to comment further, as the single image blurs when trying to enlarge. One would need to see additional exterior side/cover,  interior bowl/cover, footrim edge/base images, including close ups, before anything else could be said ...

Stuart 

 


   
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