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I picked this up a few days ago, been trying to figure out if this is authentic or a modern reproduction. I've watched A few of Peter's videos and I still cant come up with a educated decision. If it is modern could someone explain to me why. I would really like to know. Its about 22 inches wide.
Sorry for the photos be a little distorted. Hard to get decent photos, with it being so large
Hi Reeves,
I think the experts will confirm its a modern piece. Most obvious for me is the orange color on the back. The experts will point to the decoration not being fluid and artistic. Also no apparent signs of age on the dish. The shade of blue is also modern. I don’t necessarily think this is a “fake”, just a reproduction. Would be impressive to serve dinner on, maybe a Thanksgiving turkey would even fit.
Best, Todd
take it with a grain of salt
Hi Reeves,
Not going to be much use to you. What an impressive size 22 inches ! I can understand the difficulty in taking pictures. On my screen which is pretty small and of low pixel count, your photo's appear a little under exposed so can't tell the true color of the blue it appears to be very dark on my screen also the blue seems very even without much shading. This may not be the case in real life of course. I also can't see if it is entirely hand painted. How ever to my unrestrained eye the painting of the peacock seems a little stiff and if my arm was twisted and I had to venture a thought as to age I would hedge 20th century rather than antique. However you are fortunate that we have more than a few experts here who will no doubt give you a more informed answer based on the construction and color of the base as well as the painting style.
Cheers
Michael
Hi,
That is indeed an impressive size!
I also think it is modern. I find the decoration lacks spontaneity, fluidity. Basically it looks stiff and formal, as though someone has put a lot of effort into making it look like something else so it looks copied not created.
I did have an analogy but it was too grim for the start of the day! Besides, I am not an expert, so I could easily be wrong.
Julia
Hi -
This dish is modern ...
The motif combination of peacock/s amongst rocks and peonies was first seen on blue and white Yuan dynasty pieces, usually large jars (guans) or on one side of flat sided square shape flask. It then fell out of the potters repertoire in the early Ming dynasty until the mid 15th century, Zhengtong period, when this design was reintroduced in the minyao (private) kilns and is seen on meipings, jars and the central design on dishes. It then become one of the most popular central design seen on the late 15th/early 16th century dishes ...
However, this combination is unknown on the cavetto (sides) of Yuan/Ming pieces - which this piece is trying to copy - but overall drawing style, elements within indervidual motifs, blue/glaze tones, finish of the footrim and base colour are all wrong ...
Still - an impressive size ...
Stuart
Thanks you to everyone that commented. While I was doing my research I did notice that during the Yuan dynasty that this type of pattern was introduced with the Peacock. (Watership) had mentioned that the dead give away for him that it was modern was the orange colored base. In my ignorance I thought that was some type of iron oxide. So just for future reference, if I see a base with that color should I automatically assume it's a modern reproduction.
Hi Reeves,
I am far from an expert, have only been doing this seriously for under five years. Just to be clear. 🙂
Its tricky, because if its that exact shade of orange...then yes, its modern. But for someone beginning in the hobby, it can be difficult to discern a modern orange from a genuine old shade. Experts can take a half second glance and know immediately, but for someone just starting out, it can be virtually impossible. Whether or not a genuine antique of this exact type would have a rusty back...I don’t even know. Maybe one of the experts will be better able to answer.
take it with a grain of salt
Dear Reeves,
I'm guessing the orange color was an attempt to replicate the iron oxide orange/peach/pinkish tone apparent in the foot rims and botoms of antique pieces.
The good news is that you can use it, which I certainly would! If it were real Ming it would be too valuable to use as service.
One of these days I'd love to visit China and pick up a nice reproduction from Jingdezhen, maybe a large blue and white Ming style bowl to serve salads in. (Boy do I miss dinner parties!)
Regards & enjoy,
-Steve
Hi -
Attached images for comparison in the painting style variations of this design:-
1:- large flask, Yuan dynasty, ex Ardebil Shrine collection, now in the National Museum of Iran.
2:- large guan (guan), Yuan dynasty, British Museum London.
3/4:- large meiping, Ming dynasty Zhengtong period, 1436-49, the Gugong, Palace Museum, Beijing.
5:- very large dish, D. 45cm, Ming dynasty, Zhengtong period, Gugong, Palace Museum, Beijing.
6/7:- large dish, D. 32cm, Ming dynasty, Hongzhi period, 1488-1505, my own collection, acquired 20 years ago.
Note the differences in the painting styles between the pieces, the drawing of the motifs and the application of the cobalt(blue) tones, all differing quite remarkably from each period ...
I would concur with Todd @watership regarding the base on your dish been indicative of a modern piece trying to simulate Yuan/early Ming examples, but the colours and tones on authentic Yuan/Ming examples are known to vary widely ...
I hope these are of some help ...
Stuart
Hi Stuart,
Wow, you actually own a near perfect piece for comparison, complete with an authentic, orangey base. That is great! And a very nice charger it is. Fascinating to see the progression and differences. Well done.
Todd
take it with a grain of salt
I definitely see the difference, in the base, different shades of blues and the way my piece flows. With a side by side comparison. Mine does look stiffer. When I purchased it i was examining the peacocks and I thought they where done pretty good. But I definitely see a difference between mine and they it was done in the Ming Dynasty. Is it possible to hang this on the wall. I would love to use it as a dinner dish, but its going to take up way to much room. I hate to sell it, but I don't think I have anywhere to put it in my townhouse, besides hanging it on the wall.
I had an Imari charger hanging on the wall until the experts liked it and I decided I had better put it on a stand instead since the American spring type wall hangers place stress on the piece and cause damage. I have seen old hanging pieces with a metal frame work (probably European or custom made) that would not cause pressure stress to the piece. I have in the past hung an entire wall with vintage and antique plates with American spring type without causing any damage, but I may have been courting disaster.
I imagine your charger is quite heavy. You might consider using a shelf of some kind?
Hi Todd -
My pleasure to show this designs progression ...
Thank you for your kind words but, as mentioned early, late 15th/early 16th dishes with this central composition were very popular and numerous examples have survived, the Topkapi Saray Palace Museum, Istanbul alone holds 12 such dishes!!
These dishes usually have either a lotus or peony scroll to the cavetto - the chrysanthemum scroll on mine is a somewhat rarer type - but the cobalt tone is very black/greyish and white slip has been splashed on an area of the base, which subsequently ran ...?!🤔
It has some provenance, coming from an old English collection, originally sold Lot 377, Sothebys London 18/19th December 1973 ...
Stuart
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