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Hey all,Â
Hope everybody is doing well!Â
Scooped this up; thought it immediately to be a (very) late Qing production of a "Noire"
From my understanding, most late Qing Famille Noire pieces are practically non-existent; rather were added onto priorly made Verte trumpet balusters, or "ice blue" prunus styles - but this is for larger ones, of a formidable stature?
At a glance in daylight? This is certainly "Noire" - but upon further inspection you can see it was likely applied over a blue vase of a prior era. Obviously this is outside of my comfort-zone, and was wondering if anybody who enjoys/collects 18th-19th century could give me an idea of if this piece was actually one of the few late Qing produced "revivals", or if it was a "faux-Noire" from a prior era.
If so, any guess based on the period? A lot seem to have come from the late-18th century to the mid-19th century?
Unfortunately (as I bet this could have let me purchase a lot of Japanese if not) it is drilled in the bottom.Â
The (what appears to be) remainder of inscribed rust/red/brown marks adds further complication...Â
What's strange to me is that it's not a Verte based trumpet baluster of sizable proportions; it's 10" and clearly rounded at the top (where you can see the midnight blue leaking underneath) and very obviously hand-coiled throughout the inside.Â
There is, of course, the theory that due to Cixi's love for black - she took many prior pieces from other periods and converted them..
George Salting apparently refuted some of these theories, but agreed with others? (This via my VERY limited understanding, sourced from a well known blog and part of the book "Beyond Boundaries: East and West Cross-Cultural Encounters" which is edited by Michelle Ying Ling Huang)
Just wanted to know a little more. It'll likely sit on my web gallery for a while and not sell, which is fine by me as I sort of fell in love with it the moment it arrived 🙂 Just wanted to add some history to the writeup like I usually do for my Japanese pieces of certain kilns!
Attached are the pictures of it in daylight outdoors, indoors with professional grade camera lights, and then to demonstrate the blue/covered by "noire" aspect - with flash phone camera photography ( 🤣 ) Sorry for the flurry of photos, I figured all would help..
Sorry for the information/inquiry overload - hoping everybody enjoys a puzzle as much as I do..
Current theory outside of here is it's early 20th century, I'm not 100% sold on that - so it should mean they're correct LOL
(There is a theory also that a select few exceedingly rare prunus "noire style" pieces in the late Qing had the enamel mixed with 3 different colours, and brown marks to boot....but enough theories and conspiracies for today!)
Thanks for the help in advance, and best regards!
-JRN
Hi JRN,
Nice vase! I also think it is late 19th c and I don't think it has been over-painted. There is that pop hole (?) in the glaze, wouldn't that show blue underneath? I think the blue you are seeing, assuming I have understood you correctly, is some kind of iridescence-type effect.
Lots of photos are good!
JUlia
I osted at the same time as Birgit and I should have added that I can see it looks as though the flowers have been painted up to. Maybe that is where you are seeing the blue?
@jrnÂ
Hi JRN -
Enamelled plum/cherry blossom motif reserved against upon a black is now known to have commenced in the Yongzheng period ...Â
Attached images of a reconstructed dish which was discovered in the southwest area of Nandaku within the Forbidden Palace in 2014, decorated with pine, bamboo and plum blossom and incised with a faint Yongzheng mark within a double square. Wares with such decoration were unknown until this fragmented dish was found ..Â
This site was a burial pit used for broken/discarded Imperial porcelain used throughout the Ming/Qing dynasties, the shards/fragments recovered ranged from the Ming Hongwu to Qing Guangxu, although most were Qing period wares ...Â
I would concur with others posts regarding your vase, the footrim/base would indicate a late Qing dating, and only add that the overall shape/profile is not an 18th C, type, as far as I’am aware ...
Stuart Â
Â
Â
You are all absolutely fantastic!Â
Thank you so much for the context; and the clarification - I could not find any examples that may have been "converted" matching this shape, and the 19th/20th seemed to make the most sense.. round top baluster, rounded foot, ect ect..
@imperialfinegems - oh yes, for that good ol' Ruby Lane markup and a 2 INCH CHIP to the rim. Going for $2400 or so I believe; likely because it is indeed verte trumpet baluster in appearance is my guess, 17" or so..
@shinigami wise but potent words, and I am appreciative of them 😀Â
@julia in person it's more of a midnight blue with navy undertones for some reason, but black at a distance. You are probably absolutely correct with the intentional iridescence..
@shine that is GORGEOUS. WOW. Belongs in a display caseÂ
Â
@ming1449 you know I'm an absolute sap for history; thank you for starting this day out right for me with some new trivia!
A burial pit for imperial porcelain... Indiana Jones mission if I've ever heard of one...Â
Okay now the big question. I like it, but I like other things I'm looking at more a little bit over time..
Doesn't drilling effect value by about 90%? Surely it's not as problematic as the one @imperialfinegems is talking about with the gaping chip, ect.Â
Any suggestions on a range for "gallery pricing"? Somewhere between "I don't mind if I hold onto it for a minute" and "okay well I can also get this... " ? a few friends suggested in the $1000-$2000 range? Seems steep, but I guess other than the drilling it is lovely and well preserved..Â
All opinions are certainly welcome if not minded..
Sorry for long message and inquiry... appreciate all the help!
Hope to post some pretty cool Japanese pieces later when I get the time..
Best regards,
-JRN
$1000-2000 seems a bit high considering the damage(drilled bottom). For chinese ceramic, any significant damage will have a steep impact on the value. I think $200-600 would be closer to what it would sell for at auction. Maybe add 25% for "retail price"
Thank you for your realistic estimate @springmeier; always appreciated 🙂
I quite like it for myself; so 🤣 I'll probably do the ol' RubyLane 25% or FirstDibs 250% choke price until needed to get it offhanded.Â
Thanks again with your help!
It is lovely and maybe some decorator needs a lamp in that color and pattern. In the meantime, enjoy your excellent find.
I think this vase is more likely Republic than late Qing , given the comparative example of a bowl that another poster showed. Decoration on both is very similar And the footrim on your vase looks to me later than Qing. The potting (mouth rim and interior) seems also Republic.Â
My understanding of famille noire is that original Kangxi examples are very rare, and there was a rage for them in the C19th among American and British collectors , hence many older examples of famille verte were overpainted. The Lady Lever Gallery in Port Sunlight , Liverpool has many of these and there is an article on the website about how they were mis-attributed to Kangxi.Â
I have also seen an article about famous noire vases traded among US collectors in the late 1800s which were thought to be be original kangxi but were painted over, possibly by unscrupulous dealers. This meant also that many late qing copies were produced in famille noire for export; these are not overpainted but 'kangxi revivial' .Â
tam
Hi Tam,Â
I tried to look for that article you referred to in your post. However I was unable to find it.Â
Perhaps you could kindly provide a link or cut and paste a copy here?
Thank you.Â
MarkÂ
@tam18 appreciate the insight, some good details to learn about
@imperialfinegems I too would like to see that article,Â
sounds like it may have heavily borrowed from the book I mentioned in my initial post:
Beyond Boundaries: East and West Cross-Cultural Encounters
I think you can skim parts of it on google books or ect, if you don't want to pay the hefty sum (imo) current copies are selling for
Regards,
-JRN
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