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Large clobbered bowl

 
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 Robert P.
(@robert)
Eminent Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 20
Topic starter 04/09/2021 5:32 am  
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Hi

Can anyone help with this one? I suspect this to be a late Qianlong export Fitzhugh bowl clobbered in England. I used eBay assistant and was told that this is not Chinese and was probably made in France. One of the things that is apparently wrong are the black specks in the glaze. I personally suspect that this is a result of clobbering and happens when overglaze enamels are being fired in the kiln but would like to hear your opinion on this. I have seen these specks on several clobbered Chinee pieces in the past. Here are some I managed to find online:

https://andrewdando.co.uk/product/chinese-export-plate-with-clobbered-decoration/
https://andrewdando.co.uk/product/c18th-chinese-export-clobbered-porcelain-sauce-tureen/
https://www.catawiki.com/en/l/9815597-large-porcelain-clobbered-ware-ginger-jar-5-claw-dragon-china-18th-century
https://www.catawiki.com/en/l/20868657-clobbered-plate-china-and-london-late-18th-century

 

What is your opinion?

 


   
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Topic Tags
Clobbered Charger fitzhugh
Shinigami
 Shinigami
(@shinigami)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 4836
04/09/2021 6:04 am  

It’s not a Fitzhugh pattern. The foot rim and mark don’t look Chinese. The underglaze blue pattern looks as if it was meant to be further decorated with colors. I agree with a European origin, probably 19th century. 

Birgit


   
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 Robert P.
(@robert)
Eminent Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 20
Topic starter 04/09/2021 6:13 am  

@shinigami I forgot to add that this has very faint initials inside each circle which would explain why the rest is undecorated, similar to examples below

https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/chinese-export-porcelain-famille-rose-initialled--1238-c-886483aa4c

https://www.christies.com/en/lot/lot-5648152

https://www.skinnerinc.com/auctions/2482/lots/255

https://www.lyonandturnbull.com/auction/lot/lot-476---chinese-armorial-punch-bowl-with-arms-of-bruce-and-the-earls-of-elgin/?lot=147252&so=0&st=&sto=0&au=8807&ef=&et=&ic=False&sd=1&pp=96&pn=2&g=1

 

 

This post was modified 4 years ago by Robert P.

   
Shine reacted
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Shine
 Shine
(@shine)
Noble Member
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 871
04/09/2021 6:16 am  
1D983B6D 5BCC 4DD4 B968 FDAF6CDA49BF

 

Hi,

I don’t think the original underglaze blue as Fitzhugh pattern as it is a very simple design on your Bowl.

When you take away the clobbering there appears to be no actual Chinese enamels (from what I can see) and it came over from China in just blue and white.

The foot looks Chinese and the porcelain appears to be hard paste.

Attached is an English soft porcelain Bowl,made in Caughley,Shropshire transfer printed 18th c Basin,clobbered later in the early 19th c in England.

Same lime green as was typical.

The iron red pseudo Chinese mark is typical of English clobberers,probably London,but my Bowl and a similarly clobbered Bowl (Worcester s/p porcelain) in the British Museum may be clobbered outside London.

In essence I believe your Bowl is Chinese in manufacture,late 18th c.

Others may differ in their opinion so await further replies,

 

Vic

E8630142 5074 4080 88AC E54D02313978
AA02B14B A264 4C45 A871 5AD38164D81A

 


   
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 Robert P.
(@robert)
Eminent Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 20
Topic starter 04/09/2021 6:23 am  

@shine Thanks Vic. See my reply above - there are initials inside the circles which makes it very similar to armorial/pseudo-armorial pieces quoted above. White enamels on dragons faces and claws seem to be indicative of London (according to Andrew Dando).


   
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Shine
 Shine
(@shine)
Noble Member
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 871
04/09/2021 6:23 am  

This is a clobbered Fitzhugh that I sold fairly recently.

The buyer talked my piece down so I sold it to him at a low price.

He put it up for sale for 2+ times the price that I sold it to him (that’s business I suppose).

I’ve had to severely crop the image to upload it.

35AA02EE 27AF 47C2 835C 91EB14AA8462

 

This post was modified 4 years ago by Shine

   
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 Julia
(@julia)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 7220
04/09/2021 6:25 am  

Interesting, all I can say is that I don't see that as a Qianlong foot rim / base.  It looks overpainted, yes, but where it is originally from I don't know.  I wonder if it is a 19th c piece that has been overpainted.


   
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 Robert P.
(@robert)
Eminent Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 20
Topic starter 04/09/2021 6:32 am  
Posted by: @shine

This is a clobbered Fitzhugh that I sold fairly recently.

The buyer talked my piece down so I sold it to him at a low price.

He put it up for sale for 2+ times the price that I sold it to him (that’s business I suppose).

I’ve had to severely crop the image to upload it.

35AA02EE 27AF 47C2 835C 91EB14AA8462

 

I bought that one Vic! I just checked the message history as I don't remember "talking your piece down". Message in my offer only says:

Thank you for your kind counter-offer. This is my best. Hope that works for you and you can accept. Kind regards, Robert


   
Sharon P reacted
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Shine
 Shine
(@shine)
Noble Member
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 871
04/09/2021 6:37 am  

Hi Robert, I’m pretty sure that there were a few messages (may be wrong) under another buyer I.D. as opposed to your selling one.

Vic


   
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 Robert P.
(@robert)
Eminent Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 20
Topic starter 04/09/2021 6:44 am  
Posted by: @shine

Hi Robert, I’m pretty sure that there were a few messages (may be wrong) under another buyer I.D. as opposed to your selling one.

Vic

I did buy this through my other ID. Double checked eBay message history as well as automated emails and there was no communication other than offers and counter-offers. Maybe somebody else was talking it down? 🙂


   
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 Robert P.
(@robert)
Eminent Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 20
Topic starter 04/09/2021 7:21 am  

@julia Thanks Julia. That was actually my original question through eBay assistant whether this is Qianlong or slightly later.


   
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 Robert P.
(@robert)
Eminent Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 20
Topic starter 04/09/2021 7:43 am  
R0007235 1
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Additional photos of the foot if that helps.


   
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 Julia
(@julia)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 7220
04/09/2021 9:15 am  

Thanks for those.  I have searched and searched but can't find a similar base on a Qianlong bowl.  I feel, possibly wrongly, that the black dots were there when it was made.  I know it appears on some of the other pieces you showed us, but on the ginger jar I think that is just what they look like, I had one of those and besides most of that style/pattern are, I think, 19th c; as for the plate, I am not convinced that is Qianlong either.

I have seen a kind of similar grey spotty look to the paste of 19th c Chinese pieces notably of the pre/bencharong type, but one could also say that the actual foot rim on Vic's Worcester bowl is not dissimilar to that of the piece we are discussing. I also came across a similar grainy/spotty look on a piece of Liverpool - I am not saying this is Liverpool or Worcester, just that there is a good chance this is indeed a clobbered European bowl.

I really don't know. It is very interesting and a great topic.

ps Meant to say earlier - Welcome to the forum! 😊 


   
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Shine
 Shine
(@shine)
Noble Member
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 871
04/09/2021 9:37 am  

Hi Julia,do you mean the Dragon clobbered plate you believe to be 19th c .

Vic


   
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 Robert P.
(@robert)
Eminent Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 20
Topic starter 04/09/2021 9:54 am  

@julia Thanks Julia, much appreciated. I also forgot to add that this is 31cm in diameter. I suppose they had to make foot slightly different for bowls of different size to accommodate the weight of the porcelain. I suppose this might be later than Qianlong which could also explain the foot. Discolouration of the paste seems to be of the same type as the specks in the glaze (or over-glaze) so I suspect this happened at the same time when this was being re-fired after the application of overglaze enamels. As you said, ginger jar was probably made that way but the other pieces acquired these specks at later stage.

Here is another similar export bowl that I found:

https://www.lelandlittle.com/items/364299/a-chinese-export-armorial-porcelain-punch-bowl/?ref=%7B%22name%22%3A%22The+Important+Spring+Auction%22%2C%22url%22%3A%22%5C%2Fauction%5C%2Fthe-important-spring-auction%5C%2F44873%5C%2F%22%7D


   
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