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I'd like some help with the marks. The dish is 6"x1 1/2". The main mark seems to be Arita - but someone added some other marks. Aren't the colors similar to Kakiemon? What do you think it is?
David Coles
Hey David,
The mark looks like an apocryphal Chenghua mark, and while the palette looks similar to Kakiemon, I do believe this is an Arita dish, probably early to mid 18th century, could possibly be earlier than that though. I will look in Shibata this evening and see if I can find a similar design.
Cheers,
Jeremy
@musicnus
Hi David -
The six-character blue mark reads 'Da Ming Cheng Hua Nian Zhi', which can be read as 'Great Ming Chenghua period made, the Imperial mark of the Ming Emperor who reigned between 1465-87 ...
This mark is one of the most widely copied, both during later Ming periods, the Qing dynasty, Republic period and even today. It was also one of the marks frequent copied/seen on Japanese wares ...
Apologies, I can't read the red characters, but hopefully some else will be able to help with these ...
Stuart
Hi Jeremy -
And with apologies, for we seem to have posted very close to one another ...
Stuart
Hey Stuart,
No worries, as always you respond super thoroughly. Definitely copied in Japan as early as the end of the Chenghua period itself, from what I have seen in the Shibata collection, more common late 17th century onward, and very common in the 19th century.
I can't read the red either, but I'm curious to know what they say, I wonder if it is enamel or ink.....
Cheers,
Jeremy
Friends,
I found a note from a Japanese collector who says the red reads "300 years old". I don't see how that relates, however. Those red letters scratches under my nails - so I think someone just used paint of some sort on it. Reading some of my notes one Japanese dealer said ko-Imari - but the mark is Arita according to Gotheborg's list. Another Chinese dealer said transition ware was liked very much by the Japanese and so they copied it very early. You can see why I'm totally confused.
David Coles
@musicnus
Hi David,
I wasn't able to find a good example of your design in the Shibata Collection, however the tree being decorated, not in underglaze blue, but in a light brown, seems to point to after 1690 or so. Ko-Imari means "old imari", an Arita Kiln product of the Edo period. Yours would certainly qualify. Imari later referred to the Kinrande type wares with red gold green and blue and white underglaze decoration, but Ko-Imari was blue and white, some Kinrande, Kakeimon type wares and other enameled wares. As for being 300 years old, yours is pretty darn close, but I still suspect it is first quarter to the middle of the 18th century. On gotheborg your mark is under the Arita catagory, but "marks imitating ming marks". So it is Arita ware, just early, and what would be considered Ko-Imari.
Cheers,
Jeremy
Jeremy, That is just the information I was looking for!! The only thing left is to see some similar pieces. That seems to be eluding me. BTW, this was one of my earliest pieces bought in the 1970s in a dumpy junk shop in Sagami-ono, Japan. Isn't it interesting that collectors can remember where we bought things so long ago? The fun is in the acquisition.
David Coles
The red characters appear to be numbers 16 and 09. Not sure if someone was putting an arbitrary date or what but I see a ten, a six, a zero, and a nine (four characters).
George
George, Thanks!
Mark Bennett on Gotheborg found the answer!
My first mistake was that I misread Guangxu instead of the correct Ming dynasty reign of Chenghua. That's the difference between 1875 and 1497; or box date of 1781. AND I don't know how Mark was able to find the VERY SAME DISHES - with the very same colors and EXACT painting and the same measurements 15CM. About 30 years ago, I actually took this dish to the Met and saw a Chinese lady Mrs. Lowell who said "she was not sure." Well, now we know!
David Coles
I am still kicking myself for missing the MARK! I guess I am so a tuned to the Cheng dynasty. And my older pieces are from Yuan, Song and Ming and they don't have marks. This is another reason for posting our pieces to get input from other collectors who are looking with new eyes at my old piece. BTW, Everyone missed the mark as well here and on Gotheborg. I caught it by seeing a piece that was posted like mine with the REAL mark - then I looked again at mine. AND there was a deep richness of the blue in the mark that isn't seen on later marks, I think.
David Coles
@musicnus
Hey David,
I am glad you figured it out, I did see the post on Gotheborg shortly after the one on here.... Can't say I am surprised it is Ko-sometsuke, as that explains the tan-ish foot and the overlap with Arita decorations. Really great dish!
Cheers,
Jeremy
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