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A fairly recent purchase of a blue and white plate/bowl from Japan as usual looking for information as to its place of origin in Japan and thoughts as to its age. It is in what I call flower shape 22cm wide and it is stoutly potted. With a kuchibeni rim or ben-e rim . There are 4 spur marks in Y shape. There are no marks, not even a Fuku in a square or double square to wish me luck in my search for information. There are a few iron spots. Do they give a clue as to age ? I have started my search in the Arita area. I have read that nearly all the main kilns in the Arita region made things with a dressed rim including Kakiemon and Kutani. As far as date is concerned I have found examples from major and minor auction houses who have dated very similar plates anywhere between 1650 and 1800. Robert Mcpherson seems to have had a few over time, most dated around 1750. There is a lot of information on the internet/ books? regarding Chinese dressed rim plates dating from the Song right through all the dynasties until the present day. It seems it was originally added as a protection especially on the early Chinese wares because the rims tended to frit. It is not clear why it was continued once they had overcome the problems with damaged rims; maybe they just liked the look of it. I can find no information as to why the Japanese started to use it on their porcelain. Perhaps to meet an export order ? Maybe they just liked it also.
I also wonder for whom such plates were made. I don't think plates decorated in this way would have been very popular in Europe with its use of space and things seemingly just floating around. Even in the 17th and 18th centuries I think they liked a bit more going on and their mountains and Islands to be a bit more nailed down certainly by the nineteenth century there would have been a few extraneous flowers and with some gold thrown about.
In the meantime I will enjoy the way the painter of this plate has used the white of the porcelain to suggest mountains peeking out of the clouds and a misty island with a temple. Not to everybody's taste but that is the fun thing about collecting that we all like such different thing
Hope that you don't think I have written too much, I just wanted to show I do some work before posting my items, not just looking for a quick fix, I have tentatively placed the plate to the Arita area and dated it to between 1800 and 1830. Would appreciate members thoughts and any tips where I may find further information.
Michael.
Hi Brettm,
Beautifully done dish you have posted. Love the deep royal cobalt blue.
I think this was made for local consumption and not export. With the kinrande gilt I think this is from the late Edo period. So circa 1800-1830 in my opinion.
Just my thoughts though! 😁
Mark
Found these in the Shibata collection Catalog
Hi Michael, your lovely plate looks similar to a plate I bought from Guest and Gray. They said it was around 1800.
Birgit
I think we are very lucky Birgt
Yes that would be Mark I did not link of linking JRN
Michael
Hi Michael,
Metal lip bands were affixed to high quality Yue-ware bowls during the Five Dynasties period (907-60); and selected vessels of lacquer, ceramic, and even jade are known to have been finished with rims of gold and silver as early as the Han Dynasty ...
The metal bands affixed to ceramics during the Five Dynasties and Northen Song are mostly wide, often measuring up to two centimetres both on both to the interior/exterior. In most cases the narrower bands seen on Song pieses were added in the 19th/20th C as replacements for the original ...
Ming Dynasty ceramics with brown stained are known from the mid 15th C, but are quite rare. A few of these pieses are high quality, but all private kilns pieces, so the staining may have been to emulate the Song metal rims, perhaps for specific patrons or markets ...
The brown staining seems to have falling out of favour after this period, but returns in the very late Ming Chongzhen period, so late 1630's. It then become very popular and is widely seen on pieces produced both for internal and export markets until around early Kangxi, so mid 1670's when the practice dies out ...
Due to the chaos caused by the fall of the Ming dynasty foreign traders, mostly Dutch, were unable to source any ceramics from China after the late 1650's. The turned to Japan to supply these orders who, naturally, produced pieces that copied late Ming kraak and transitional design - including the brown rim staining - for the overseas trade ....
The Japanese potters have since continued decorating the rims with this method ...
Stuart
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Kangxi vases, Kangxi dishes and chargers, Kangxi ritual pieces, Kangxi scholar's objects, Qianlong famille rose, Qianlong enamels, Qianlong period paintings, Qianlong Emporer's court, Fine porcelain of the Yongzheng period. Chinese imperial art, Ming porcelain including Jiajing, Wanli, Xuande, Chenghua as well as Ming jades and bronzes.
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A free Asian art discussion board and Asian art message board for dealers and collectors of art and antiques from China, Japan, Korea, Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam and the rest of Asia. Linked to all of the BidAmount Asian art reference areas, with videos from plcombs Asian Art and Bidamount on YouTube. Sign up also for the weekly BidAmount newsletter and catalogs of active eBay listing of Chinese porcelain, bronze, jades, robes, and paintings.
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