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Hey Folks,
I have been asked what I know of this dish, which I must admit is very little. To me it looks late Edo, but others here would likely know better. I cannot quite figure out the mark, and the decoration appears to be underglaze blue with overglaze colors. The gilding looks odd to me as well.
Anyone have any ideas?
Jeremy
I, too, have always wondered about dating this type of Imari that uses over glaze enamels much in the manner of wucai.
I have always assumed this was something started by koransha in the mid 19th c, and that it led to more elaborate pieces made by Fukagawa.
Very interested in learning what actually is the correct dating and why.
Hi Jeremy,
A most delightful looking bowl you have posted.
It's definitely Japanese and it dates in my opinion to the late Edo period. So as greeno107 thought about 1850.
Its actually a good example of why the issue with dragon claws made in Japan is under fierce debate.
Traditionally the thought has always been three claws equals Japanese. But this is actually totally incorrect. Numerous times I have seen them with four or five claws. But I must admit that I have not seen one with six. Highly unusual.
You will notice that the cobalt blue a very distinctive and intense. This indicates a natural substance. Versus the later Meiji that were for the most part synthetic. The later ones are more washed out look. However, both materials were used during the later Meiji period.
The six marks spur marks are also a great addition to thought of late Edo period.Â
As to the maker. I can't help you with that. Perhaps others could. Or failing that I could ask my friend Martin Michels from japantiek to respond. Or you could ask him yourself.
@short-dong should be able to offer his opinion as well.
Overall it's a good buy imo. Or at least I hope so. As I may not be able to to tell the difference between good and bad! 😉
Mark
BTW here is a example of a four clawed and five clawed dragon on a koransha made late Meiji vase.
Sorry, got distracted by food. 😊Â
Yes, it is strange. I haven't checked the mark but I don't immediately recognise it. The style of the front, but not necessarily the execution, is very Chinese - but whether done by or designed to appeal to, I don't know.
The brown rim is so fresh-looking and I don't like that type of dirt on the foot, although having said that the base does look edo. I assume it is large enough to warrant all the spurs?
I also have a meiji dish with that grayish paste and type of blue, but I can't get over the claws, like little spiders!
I am intrigued. Will have to do some looking around.
Just seen Mark's post - I too don't have an issue with 5 claws but this just seems so odd! 😊Â
Just had another look at the vase. I like it - is it yours, Mark?
The floral setting around the bowl is distracting. 🤗
I think it's highly probable to be done in a chinese styling but still I believe it's Japanese. The outer blue ring is also very Japanese.
MarkÂ
Isn't It! 😆 It mislead me as to the shape on the photo of the base.
I agree it is Japanese, I was only referring to the front decoration not the piece itself and besides, I can't imagine the Chinese doing the 6 claw thing.Â
I think it is a late edo piece of Arita using the old Kutani colours. Maybe it is Kutani? Hope someone can help with the mark.
Hi Jeremy,
Yes, Japanese. If I only saw the front of the dish, I probably would have guessed 2nd half 19th, but the base does look late Edo or even a bit earlier. The rim is especially unusual, agree with Julia. Could it have been retouched later with that color? I have a bowl with similar decorations which I thought was Meiji.Â
Todd
take it with a grain of salt
Clay left over from the pegs is edo pegs etc spurs from Meiji leave impression they were metal. The mark is a 1850 mark I have a cup dated to that period with same style mark they liked the marks tiny.
So is the rim gold rather than brown? Maybe it was added later to hide some minor repairs?
I realised this morning why the mark was irritating me - is it wanli? That would fit the colours, the chinese style and dragon's face. I think the final character may be sei?
@jbeer2121 @julia @imperialfinejemsÂ
Hi Jeremy, Julia and Mark,Â
Julia is quite right, the central and cavetto designs on you dish are base on/copying earlier late Ming originals, examples of which are known in blue and white and polychrome enamels ...Â
Attached images for comparison of three Wanli mark/period dishes, all held in the Gugong, Palace Museum, Beijing ...Â
Julia is also correct regarding the mark, the first two characters reading ‘Wan Li’, although the last two are somewhat more difficult to decipher!! ...Â
StuartÂ
Stuart,
Thank you for the reference pictures. I had wondered if I had read the mark as Wanli correctly, but it didn't look quite right so I assumed that was not it. I have seen a few ~1850 Japanese plates with Wanli type marks, so I wonder if that is the age range, it certainly seems to be the general consensus here.
Thank you again.
Jeremy
Â
Julia,
Thank you for taking a deep dive on this plate. You are quite correct that the rim is in fact gilt not brown, and I agree that it is likely a later addition as it just doesn't fit the dish, and shows virtually no wear. The mark was diving me a little crazy as at first glance I thought I read it as Wanli, but I am bad enough at recognizing Chinese characters and so I just wasn't sure I was seeing it properly.
Thanks for all of you input and thoughts.
Jeremy
Mark,
First of all that vase is stunning... I absolutely love that the dragon is sweeping over the shoulder. Secondly, the claws are also very interesting, I have never seen six so it certainly threw me, but I wonder if the artist did it for symmetry?
It is certainly an interesting dish to study, though I am not even sure if it is up for sale...
Thank you as always, very helpful.
Cheers,
Jeremy
Â
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