The design on the outside of the green glazed bowl, looks like a stencil or decal that has smudged badly.  The drawing inside looks to be be nicely done by hand.  Is that a gold repair?

The other plate does look more modern.  I think the outside designs are printed, then washed in; does the central one look printed to you?  The lines on the dandelions (?) look so regular but it is hard to tell.  I like the way the pollen area has been left white, very effective.

Dear Todd,

you have a knack of finding enigmatic pieces! As Julia says, both these have some characteristics of transferware and characteristics of hand painting in different places!

The pattern on the outside of the first bowl has an air of flow, but it could just be that the transfer moved a bit giving it a hazy appearance. It’s difficult to tell in this photo. 

The second dish makes me think Japanese too. There’s something about it that reminds me of a Japanese pin dish I had a while ago. I don’t have a photo of the whole dish but I do have a photo of the mark:

Not much help I’m afraid!

Nic

Hi Julia & Nic,

This is going to be a long post  ? 

I realized that one of the three stencils on the outside is only moderately blurry. The other two very blurry. So here is a pic of the moderate one...

The repair is a dark color. I don’t think its gold. Don’t know what material it might be.

Regarding the 2nd item, I am guilty of deception by omission. My apologies. The reason being, I wanted to know if other people had the same reaction that I did. Which was...printed...modern. I picked it up and looked at it and thought it was printed, inside and out. Here is where a bit of deception comes in  ?...there was a stack of six of them. So, comparing two side by side, which I often do...I could tell they were hand drawn. I actually said “wow”. Not because of some brilliance of artwork, but because I was that surprised that they were hand drawn. After saying “wow”, I of course looked around me...fortunately I was alone. These were pay by weight, so the price was already set. But its not a great idea to let the proprieter know that you are excited over an item, regardless. If it was an unmarked price item, which is quite normal, then it would have been a more serious error. So, I bought all six, and two more of a different pattern. Although those two have some chipping to the foots. This artist must have been proud of his abilities. There are areas of the drawings in which its difficult to discern the differences. But it becomes obvious after a short bit of examination. I find it surprising that such great effort was made in making the pieces so similar. The backs are also hand drawn, each dish being different. The age is still uncertain. They are not necessarily old based on being hand drawn with skill, I know. 

Julia, I think you were being gentle in your way when you asked if the interior looked printed. You were leaning that way, yes? For me, I was almost certain they were printed before I did the comparison. Again, my apologies. 

Nic, a pin dish, I’ll look that up. The shape is not one I’ve seen before. Well, not exactly...I suppose I’ve seen similar shapes. 

Best, Todd

Oh, almost forgot my bonus item. A Japanese shrapnell shell from WWI era. A bargain at $9.50 usd.  

That Shell is cool, $9 is a fraction of it's value. They can sell for huge money to the right buyer. The Japanese plates for me are hard to date, since you found a World War 1 shell with this lot then maybe they are early 20th cemtury. 

Hi Short,

I found them both this weekend, but at different places. Can’t find another Japanese shell online like this, so I really don’t know the value. Did see a similar British one online, but no price. On those dishes I am up in the air. Really not sure about age. But the artist was...or is, talented. 

Hi Todd,

Yes, my first impression was that the dandelion was printed, as the central flowers on the outside also looked printed and washed over. However, I wasn't so sure about the outside leaves and the pattern around the footim wasn't printed, so I went back to look more closely at the dandelion.  

The bit that caught my eye there were the lines on the blue stream-like thing behind the plant on the picture below.  They were not  uniform, sometimes there were two, elsewhere three or four and that made me wonder.  That was why I asked; I really wasn't sure and thought you might be able to tell. 

Nice that you have 6!  And a shell! ? 

Hi Todd,

I think that on balance, these plates are very good contenders for being hand painted. But, the problem with transferware is that there are many variables such as:

• factories use several copper plates for the same pattern, the plates themselves will have variations accounting for variations in the set.
• The copper plate wears away with use. So transfers made at different times using the same plate can vary.
• where the transfer is placed on the item can give the appearance of ‘difference’ so it will look different on the curved edge than on the flat bottom.
• The amount of ink applied can account for differences in definition.

As an example, here’s a photo of 2 plates made at the same factory at approximately the same time. Ignore the fact they are different colours. That’s just the ink. These are clearly transferware, one can see a join on one. Also, handpainting a design this detailed would be hugely labour intensive.

I’ve highlighted a couple of differences. There are a few more. But here’s the thing, these two plates were made using two different engravings! Knowing this, the differences are negligible and the similarities more remarkable.

So, whilst I think the relative simplicity in design on your plates certainly means handpainting is a possibility (unlike with mine), there are  also so many points of exactness it’s really difficult to be 100% sure.  Things like the point at which the stem of the dandelion intersects with the wavy path in the background which seems to be identical in all 4? To achieve this level of accuracy when handpainting is truly amazing!

As I said, you have the amazing ability to find items that confound us all!

Nic ?

Hi Julia, I see what you are saying. To be honest, I didn’t know that was something to look for. But now I do  ? 

Hi Nic, Of the four points listed, I always take into account the last three. As I was fooled a few times when I was less experienced...by these exact things. The possibility that each plate was from a different engraving is always there. I can’t be 100% sure, as you say. Where the stems connect with the wavy thing, if you look closely you can see that the positions and angles of the stems are actually all different.  The easiest places on the drawing to spot the difference very quickly is the long parallel wavy lines. Each plate being completely different. I suppose this is nearly impossible to duplicate accurately, and it shows. The tiny flowers on the bottom are all very different. Not much effort was made there at duplication. The strokes are so tiny, I suppose just drawing them in the 1st place is hard enough without having to make them the same. 

All this being said, I am still a bit confused. I can choose any two plates at random, and look at any small point in the drawings and see that they are a different drawing...yet I don’t see the reason for the dedication to making them look as similar as they do.  Its usually quite a bit more obvious. 

(When I say I can look at any point and see the difference, I can only do that because I have the pieces right here and can look closely.  One can’t be expected to do the same from the one picture I provided for comparison. I certainly couldn’t. )

Best, Todd

Hi Todd,

Yes, I’d love to be able to see these in the flesh! They’ve really got me curious!

I love how they are unmistakably dandelions rather than stylised. The dandelion leaves in particular are totally on point.

Nic

Making an ordinary dandelion a thing of beauty is rather lovely! 

I also would like to see them in person, it is so hard to tell.  There are things for and against.  I would do things like count petals on the flowers, spikes on the leaves.  The dark one might suggest it is a transfer and that one got a bigger dollop of paint?  

However, if they are printed, the obvious differences like that give some indication as to when they may have been made.

Let me know if you are selling the square Bowls.

Vic