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I need help dating this bowl. It seems very old, but I have no experience with archaic bronze so I cannot tell. The lid I'm guessing would be much later than the bowl itself if the bowl is in fact much older. Also, regardless of age, what type of description would this get? Would it originally be for food, ritualistic, beverage, or other? Thanks so much! John
It's imo a archaic style. Not old. It looks like a reproduction to me. A lot of these are being made in china atm. It's a food vessel.
I would not buy this.
Mark
@imperialfinegems It has been in the current family who owns it for at least a century. Does that make a difference in your assessment or were these being faked in this way at that time as well?
Hi John,
How do you know it's been in their family for over 100 years?
To my eye based on what pictures you posted I don't like the patina. It looks artificial. I also don't like the cast of tthe ribbon effect. Of course I could be wrong so let's wait for some other opinions etc. 😊
Mark
@imperialfinegems I'm close friends with the owner. He's in his 80's and inherited it from his father who likely got it from his father to the best of his knowledge and before that it's anyone's guess. The family has several nice older Chinese antiques that were obtained back then. They were a prominent New York family in the early 20th century. Of course, none of that guarantees it's authentic. That's why I'm curious if Chinese bronzes were faked in earlier times. Any info on that is welcomed and I'm also curious what others in the forum will say.
Hi Johnshoe,
The easy part of your question to answer is regarding fake's yes it's been going on for a very long time. So much so there are fakes of fakes. Not just Chinese but Egyptian, African and pre-columbian. In fact anything and everything if there is a $ in it.
I am reluctant to be critical of peoples photo's as mine are nearly always pretty awful. If you want to know more you need to upload some better pic's. Think Mark is correct on his assessment. However that could change with better detailed pic's. The base to me looks like a 1930's rose bowl that was once plated but has now lost it's plating. The top from a saucepan. Hope I am wrong.
Michael
I also suspect this is a relatively recent item ie 20th c. It could quite well have been in the family of an 80 year old for as long as he can remember but to have "likely" got it from his father is where I would stop listening and start estimating the date.
I don't mean that to sound rude or harsh, but if he isn't certain of anything else, that's important if you are trying to establish age.
It looks as though the pattern goes wrong at one part, like a transfer print not matching up. It also looks wonky. I assume that is what Mark means by not liking the cast of the ribbon effect.
Julia
Hi John,
I did forward a copy of this thread to Xin from Wyssemaria-art. He thought it was from the period of Song - Yuan. In his opinion based on the strong patina made before the Ming period. He is currently on holidays and asked me to forward said to the forum.
It was that strong patina along with the poor rendering that made me think it was a more recent piece.
Xin's knows his bronze wares better than myself. 😊
I have pasted a copy for your information.
Mark
I am often totally amazed at how our experts can see through poor photographs to see such wonderful possibilities !
@johnshoe I really hope you are able to obtain better pictures after @imperialfinegems detective work and Xin's opinion.
It would be a fantastic find.
Fingers crossed for you... to few good news stories around at the moment
Michael.
@imperialfinegems Oh fantastic! Thanks for sending the pictures to Xin. I apologize to everyone for my horrible pictures. In person it looks old to my untrained eye. I have seen fake patina and this looks very different, but the nuance doesn't come across in my pictures and I had never examined something this old in person before. I have this problem where if I use the superfine setting on my phone it makes my pictures too large to upload to the forum so i use the "normal" setting and that along with my autofocus not always working well messes things up. I realize I need to get a real camera if not for my own sake then for all of your benefit. i hope Xin can comment further as i would love to know what else he could ascertain. perhaps I could get some better photos and send to him directly for a closer look.
Hi Johnshoe,
If you can upload you better quality pic's to a computer you may be able to reduce the size without loss of quality.
Michael
The overall patina, subtlety of details and wear on the wooden part is so convincing I would hope it's authentic.
I know very little about bronzes but I think it's a gorgeous item!
Hold on here. This is not an Archaic Bronze!
If Xin is correct it is Song to Ming Period in an “Archaic style” making it anywhere from 500-700 years old. If it was a true Archaic bronze it should be pre-Han Dynasty back into the BC era. Just a matter of terminology I suppose😀
George
So I have spent some more time looking at it very carefully. When you see it magnified the patina is very nuanced. For example the spots that have turned green are interspersed with the darker parts in very subtle ways. It will vary between colors frequently in very small areas. My conclusion is that to fake this would be a work of mastery in its own right because the level of detail involved in pulling it off would be incredible. I would like to see a high level fake to compare because I can't imagine they could get anywhere close to what this really looks like. I feel fortunate for being able to see it so up close and personal. It gives me a lot more knowledge to work with for when i examine other items, and will help me identify the real from the reproduced on these older versions. I am really seeing how handling the authentic pieces is the best education. now if I could only get my hands on all those pieces in the palace museum!
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