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Is this an 18th century oxblood sang-de-boeuf Bowl or modern copy

 
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Brian Crowe
 Brian Crowe
(@lotusblack)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 4241
Topic starter 09/01/2022 1:05 pm  

I found this bowl in a thrift store for couple of dollars. Monochrome is my weakness the bowl is very finely potted it was done on a wheel. Foot is trimmed very nicely. Could this be antique or a modern copy it shows a lot of ware. Plus there is no crackle

966E3E2D 885A 48C6 935A 209B0E343EBC
5F3327F9 5A4F 487F BAC8 7216DC8B5040
EEE77097 A74C 4A4D BAD8 F499BE3138D7
9BE79BD9 597E 4A9F 88E8 1E1B8B0A49D1
C3322AAA 047C 46AB 8833 661FECB6DCB2

 


   
Jeremy Beer reacted
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William Huvar
 William Huvar
(@william)
Noble Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 664
11/01/2022 12:04 am  

A couple of questions come to mind.

Is the glaze too bright and shiny?  Can you directly compare it with a known 18th monochrome glazed piece?  The red glaze looks very well controled which is usually a problem for very late 18th and most of the 19th century pieces.

It could be the pictures, but the shape looks rather flattened compared to typical 18th century bowl shapes.  Have you come across other 18th century bowls with the same proportions?

Is the foot rim pure white with no variation in paste color?  Looking for a tan discoloration in the paste at the glaze boundary.  Is the white glaze on the base slightly bluish in pooled areas of the glaze?  Are there clean knife marks from the potter shaping the foot into a v shape or a more rounded shaped rim?

These types of pieces really need to be handled in person.

 

 


   
Brian Crowe, Ming1449, Julia and 2 people reacted
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 Ming1449
(@ming1449)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 2710
11/01/2022 7:52 am  

@lotusblack 

Hi Brian  - 

William raises some good questions concerning this piece, especially regarding the shape/proportions, glaze tone/ending of and trimming of the footrim ...

The third image appears to show either chipping or ereguler trimming to part of the outer footrim edge - are these recent and/or perhaps deliberately done to give an impression of age/ware. Does the interior/exterior glaze surfaces exhibit signs of natural/genuine ware ...

I would also add that the footrim appears rather high, Qing pieces generally tend to have a  proportionally lower footrim to that found on Ming pieces, although this may be the images ...

William is quite correct, monochrome pieces, more then most, really need to be handled ...

Stuart 

 


   
Brian Crowe, William Huvar, Adams Asian Art and 1 people reacted
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Brian Crowe
 Brian Crowe
(@lotusblack)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 4241
Topic starter 11/01/2022 9:09 am  

The only oxblood piece I have is a 19th and 20th century period. The bowl is not like either. The bowl in my opinion is better potted. The blue tint is there and ware present on the inside. The foot is trimmed. I do think the bowl is late 18th century. But yes need a known 18th century piece to compare. I will take pictures in natural light.


   
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Brian Crowe
 Brian Crowe
(@lotusblack)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 4241
Topic starter 11/01/2022 9:28 am  

I do need to find a comparable that is flattened and I’m not sure about the chipping on the foot. The deep base I have seen on many pieces from 18th and 19th. 


   
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Brian Crowe
 Brian Crowe
(@lotusblack)
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Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 4241
Topic starter 11/01/2022 7:04 pm  

I had the bowl looked at today by a friend he thinks it might be Kangxi period. He told me that modern monochrome of this type are not turned on a wheel and wood kiln fired. You can see the turning on the base. He also talked about the fine turning on the exterior of the bowl. And that the tone is correct. Here are pictures in natural lighting. You can see the ware and scratches. I need to learn more about monochrome’s.

7B6BF283 C081 4C9A AA05 567ED03196C9
65CA20C3 EF53 4C88 9EA3 AABF8D0435DE
89C6B067 CD90 47A5 8D48 AB4AAB645E7A
40D9A6FC 4648 4EA8 9B2D ACAC821EDD96
37A2E113 F6B4 4685 99C8 0E24924F8F0F
CC71A893 8669 496F B110 29A696B4B042
259CFE18 77BE 44A2 9EF1 01CC1DD4DF01
D2102723 D351 4046 980C 07176C27D722

 


   
Jeremy Beer reacted
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 johnshoe
(@johnshoe)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 4453
11/01/2022 8:29 pm  

@lotusblack Could it be late 19 early 20th? On a scale of 1-10, with 10 being silky smooth, how would you rate the feel of the foot?


   
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Brian Crowe
 Brian Crowe
(@lotusblack)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 4241
Topic starter 11/01/2022 9:34 pm  

@johnshoe it could anything but today I was correct I called it Oxblood and was told it’s Copper Red glaze. Lol I did find a comparable. I’ll let you know  about smoothness when I get home

CE270F5B 6E85 47BB A7B8 FA510ED50209

 


   
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Brian Crowe
 Brian Crowe
(@lotusblack)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 4241
Topic starter 11/01/2022 9:50 pm  

Sorry about the errors it should say I was corrected about calling oxblood when it’s called copper red glaze.


   
Jeremy Beer reacted
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Brian Crowe
 Brian Crowe
(@lotusblack)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 4241
Topic starter 11/01/2022 11:33 pm  

@johnshoe I would say it’s a 7 to 8 on smoothness. So I curious what does the smoothness tell a person.


   
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 johnshoe
(@johnshoe)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 4453
12/01/2022 8:55 am  

@lotusblack In general, the older ones have smoother feeling feet. I've had several late 19th/20th C examples and they have a slight roughness to the feel. 


   
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Brian Crowe
 Brian Crowe
(@lotusblack)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 4241
Topic starter 12/01/2022 9:44 am  

@johnshoe I compared the bowl to my other 18th century bowls and is consistent. But look a this picture of glaze stoppage at foot my understanding is this is 18th century technique.

AB9F938F 6F4F 4F73 970D 425BE0C52764

 


   
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 Ming1449
(@ming1449)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 2710
12/01/2022 2:28 pm  

@lotusblack 

Hi Brian - 

The Christies bowl cited is rather different in shape/form, with slightly out-turned rim, different curved sides and, from the image, is higher ...

As William mentioned, look for some comparable 18th century examples, perhaps in museum or auction houses databases ...

Stuart 

 


   
Sharon P reacted
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clayandbrush
 clayandbrush
(@clayandbrush)
Famed Member
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 1611
12/01/2022 3:30 pm  

Hi Brian,

it is a nice bowl, I too would have bought it at that price. My first comment, in reading, was that it is not oxblood but copper red, but I see that you have already been corrected. The other point that I would comment and that should be corrected is the wear, not ware. It is not really convincing, in some points it looks artificial, but I am not totally sure. The shape as already said by others is too much squat.

But it is a nice bowl and could be surprising at a direct inspection.

Regards

Giovanni

 


   
William Huvar, Jeremy Beer, Ming1449 and 1 people reacted
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avatar
 avatar
(@avatar)
Noble Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 1427
12/01/2022 4:44 pm  

A 19th C example. Unfortunately I don't have a log-in for this site.

 

https://www.carters.com.au/index.cfm/item/843803-a-chinese-copper-red-glazed-bowl-qing-dynasty-19th-century-cover/


   
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