The Chinese and Asian Art Forum. For Fans, Collectors and Dealers.
Basic Rules For the BidAmount Asian Art Forum: Talk about whatever you want. You can even discuss and offer things that are for sale if they are authentic. Maximum image file size per post is 2 MB. Images of 700pxl x 700pxl are optimal if saved at a medium resolution. Be respectful of others and enjoy yourself. Click the YouTube link for a brief tutorial on using the forum. You can also EMBED Videos by cutting and pasting from You-Tube, Vimeo etc.
NOTE: To post an item or add a new post, click open the category title from the FORUM LIST, and CLICK the Blue ADD TOPIC button.
Hello everyone,
I'm new to the forum, but I've been following bidamount for some time now.
The reason I'm reaching out is because I just saw yesterday's video of Peter on Youtube, and it got me wondering about a recent purchase that I made of an alleged Qianlong Period vase.
Here's Peter's video:
In it, Peter seems to mention many times that foot rims being pasty or sandy looking, are always 19th to 20th century, and that worries me because it seems to be the case of this particular vase.
Can you guys have a look at it, and please tell me what you think?
It would mean a lot to me.
Photos are in attachment.
Thank you guys
Hi DG,
Welcome to the forum.
I am very interested to hear the verdict on this. The rim doesn’t look late 19th century to me, seems older, but that is just my amateur guess.
There are some serious experts here, they will be able to give you a reliable answer.
Todd
take it with a grain of salt
To me it doesn’t look bad, but let’s wait for the experts.
Birgit
I am interested too. If you had asked if it was late 19th c I might be inclined to agree but I am not sure it is Qianlong - is the shape elegant enough? Does it look a bit bottom heavy? I mean it sags downwards instead of rising up from the foot. That could just be the way the photos are taken, of course.
Looking forward to hearing the verdict. Fingers crossed for you!
By the way, if I may ask, did you pay a Qianlong price for it and how large is it?
Hi DG,
Firstly welcome to the forum.
Not my area of interest atm as I am more into republican period porcelain.
I believe your vase has been ground down. Hence the odd look/shape of mouth.
The depicted peonies are beautifully done. Nice white glaze.
I think your vase would either be genuine qianlong period or perhaps a tad later. 😊
Did you buy this as a genuine period or was it described as 18/19th century or other?
Shall be very interested in what others may think.
Mark
Hi DG - and as with Todd and Mark, welcome to this great Forum ...
Not really my area either, but rather a curious and interesting piece ...
Concur with Mark's comment regarding the mouth rim, you can see a very distinctive line separating the body and the interior glaze ...
You say 'purchase of an alleged Qianlong period vase', so would also like to hear how acquired and 'described', before commenting further ...
Stuart
Hello everyone and thank you all for the kind replies.
The vase was bought as Qianlong Period at a good auction house in Europe, and yes the mouth has been ground down a little bit. Sorry, I forgot to mention that…
As for the price payed, I believe It was a good buy, but was it a Qianlong price? That I honestly don’t know. May I ask how much would that be in your opinion? 🙂
The vase is 17in tall.
If it were genuine qianlong, then the ground down neck would reduce the price significantly but such a vase would still cost , I guess, in the low thousands of euros rather than the hundreds.
My feeling is that this one could be later - the decoration does not seem fine enough or precise enough for Qianlong. If you watch Peter's video where he discusses heaping and piling on blue and white porcelain, this looks here quite crude, with uniform dark patches at the edges of the leaves etc.
I agree the footrim is more consistent with the rounded , compressed ones of C19th pieces shown in the video , rather than C18th pieces, and there are no iron oxide lines or traces inside or outside the footrim, which can be an indication of later C19th production.
Also, for a vase of this stature and decoration , if it were made in the C18th, you might expect to see a reign mark (?).
tam
Hi DG -
Some attached images and descriptions for comparison to the flower scroll, base lotus panels, pendents and plantain leafs on your vase ...
1, Qianlong mark/period bottle vase, Lot 3027, Sothebys HK, 8 October 2019, sold for HK$687,500 ..
2, Qianlong mark/period vase, Huaihaitang Coll, Hong Kong ...
These two pieces are the closest I have been able to find to the type of flower scroll, probably depicting ‘foreign type’ lotuses, seen on your piece ...
Notice the painting style differences of the flower scroll, the pendents and the plantain leaves, the way dots have been applied to simulate the Ming ‘heap and piled’ effect, between these examples and your piece - all markedly different, especially to the base lotus panels ...
Although images are, at best, subjective, personally I would concur with Tam’s thoughts, the overall decoration just does not appear fine enough for QL, or indeed 18th century, and the foot appears more 19th C then 18th C, IMO ...
As mentioned however, this really isn’t my area, so I will be interested to hear others opinions on this ...
The last two pieces are examples of unmarked 18th C pieces ...
3, A large ‘moon’ flask decorated with lotus scrolls, Huaihaitang Coll, HK. This emulates the early 15th C Imperial Ming Yongle/Xuande type, and is of exceptional quality ...
4, 18th C B/W bottle vase, Lot 138, Bonhams London, 6 November 2014, sold for £12,000. I saw/handled this piece whilst at Robert McPherson’s gallery several years earlier - a lovely piece, again of high quality ...
Stuart
Wow Stuart, thanks for all that research, it really puts things into perspective.
And thank you all who have responded as well, of course. You guys have all been too kind.
As for the vase itself, these are very disappointing news... I was convinced it was genuine mainly due to the auction house reputation, but that shows we can never be to careful.
Sorry guys, I forgot I had better shots of the vase…
Anyway, I wonder if these make any difference on your evaluation?
Also I did found these two relatable examples:
https://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2012/arts-dasie-pf1217/lot.50.html
Hi,
I have looked and looked to see why I feel it lacks the up-lifting, elegant 18th c shape. Proportionally, there is not much in it; maybe yours has a slightly wider neck and a slightly dumpier look to its belly, but that could be enough to make the difference.
However, I just noticed that it is also the way the pattern is structured on the vases with similar(ie banded) decoration. If you look, you will see that the scrolling flower part of the pattern on your vase, starts much lower down which has the effect of dragging the eye down and focussing on that wider part. Maybe that is why it looks less elegant and more stout? It also means the lower band seems hidden somewhat by the lower curve. None of that really seems to happen in the 18th c examples.
It is a nice vase, but I still think it is more likely a late 19th c version.
Julia
I'm afraid that I have to agree with the others, that this is a late Qing piece, or possibly even Republic, when this painting style was very popular. I know all too well how much it hurts to hear disappointing news after spending a lot, as it's certainly happened to me, and I suspect most here. The shade of cobalt and detail of painting just don't quite have the vibrancy or "look" of a Qianlong piece. A good challenge would be to try to find a Qianlong era vase with the identical form, including tapering of the neck, etc. The glaze on the base inside the footrim has a sort of "painted on" look that I've seen on a number of Republic vases, but a Qianlong base should really be more glassy and perfect. Republic vases I think can be even harder to tell than late Qing, because the footrims were cleaned up and more precise. I hope that I'm wrong and that it turns out to be correct.
Here is a Qianlong M&P vase from Bonham's that has a lot of great close up shots...you can really see how they did the heaped and piled look during that era, as well as how perfect the base looks. https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/24904/lot/284/
Hi DG,
I’m sure it is disappointing. But...your vase is just as beautiful as it was yesterday. It is quite an attractive piece. As mlvbs says, anyone who collects Asian porcelain has had their fair share of disappointment. But no one has stated that they are 100% sure from hence it originates. Opinions were a bit mixed and pictures can be somewhat misleading at times. The result is not exactly definitive...
take it with a grain of salt
Hi DG -
My pleasure to forward previous images and descriptions ...
Attached images of the Christie’s, first image and Sotheby’s, second image, vases you traced next to your piece, the third image, for direct comparisons. The Sothebys vase is much closer to yours overall ...
As mentioned, look at the painting style of the flower scrolls, the plantain leaves to neck, the downward facing pendents and the lotus panels around the base, the application of the ‘dots’ and the overall flow of the designs between the two auction house vases and yours - the difference are obvious ...
As with mlvbs and Todd, please don’t be disappointed, anyone who collects - whatever the subject - has made mistakes, it’s how we learn. And, as Todd mentions, opinions here have varied and are not yet definitive, so I would also be inclined wait to wait and hear other opinions ...
Your vase is still a nice piece ...
Stuart
Latest Post: Kutani dish - Edo or Meiji? Our newest member: James Close Recent Posts Unread Posts
Thanks for visiting "The BidAmount Asian Art Forum | Chinese Art"
If you sell on eBay, or have a shop feel free to post images and descriptions and links.
Check back often for discussion about the latest news in the Chinese art and antique world. Also find out about the latest Asian art auctions at Sotheby's, Christie's, Bonhams and Tajans.
Auction results for: fine porcelain, ceramics, bronze, jade, textiles and scholar's objects. As well as Japanese, Thai, Vietnamese and other Asian cultures.
Thank you,
Peter Combs
Topics and categories on The BidAmount Asian Art Forum | Chinese Art
Kangxi vases, Kangxi dishes and chargers, Kangxi ritual pieces, Kangxi scholar's objects, Qianlong famille rose, Qianlong enamels, Qianlong period paintings, Qianlong Emporer's court, Fine porcelain of the Yongzheng period. Chinese imperial art, Ming porcelain including Jiajing, Wanli, Xuande, Chenghua as well as Ming jades and bronzes.
Join the BidAmount Chinese and Asian art discussion board and forum today
The BidAmount Asian Art Forum | Chinese Art
A free Asian art discussion board and Asian art message board for dealers and collectors of art and antiques from China, Japan, Korea, Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam and the rest of Asia. Linked to all of the BidAmount Asian art reference areas, with videos from plcombs Asian Art and Bidamount on YouTube. Sign up also for the weekly BidAmount newsletter and catalogs of active eBay listing of Chinese porcelain, bronze, jades, robes, and paintings.
The art of calligraphy - and for the ancient Chinese it certainly was an art - aimed to demonstrate superior control and skill using brush and ink. Calligraphy established itself as one of the major Chinese art forms during the Han dynasty (206 BCE - 220 CE), and for two millennia after, all educated men were expected to be proficient at it.
The Museum’s collections of Asian art span nearly five millennia and encompass the cultures of China, the Himalayas, India, Japan, Korea, and Southeast Asia. In 2007, the Museum launched an initiative to create dedicated galleries for the collection, beginning with a gallery for the arts of Korea ...
Chinese art is full of symbolism, in that artists typically seek to depict some aspect of a totality of which they are intuitively aware.
China Online Museum is the finest online museum of Chinese art. It features Chinese calligraphy, painting, ceramics, bronzes, carving, and other artworks.
Chinese Ceramics & Works of Art. Overview Upcoming auctions Contacts Auction results ... Christie’s sales of Chinese ceramics and works of art showcase centuries of Chinese history. Held throughout the year in London, New York, Paris and Hong Kong, they attract a wide audience of collectors and connoisseurs vying for pieces as diverse as ...
Explore Asian Art Week. Contact the Specialist Department. Chinese Paintings ... Senior Specialist, Head of Sale. [email protected]. Tel:+1 212 641 5760. Bid in-person or online for the upcoming auction:Fine Chinese Paintings on 10 September 2019 at New York. Bid in-person or online for the upcoming auction:Fine Chinese Paintings on 10 ...
Discover an abundance of must-see art from all corners of a vast continent at Christie’s NY Asian Art Week. From contemporary classical and Chinese paintings to works with exemplary provenance from the Art Institute of Chicago, our Rockefeller Paza galleries will be full of ancient treasures and contemporary masterworks in a salute to the vibrant arts of Asia.
Sold to benefit The Art Institute of Chicago’s Asian Art Acquisition Fund, the sale features 84 lots with a focus on Ming and Qing porcelains, and offers a rare insight into the taste for collecting Chinese ceramics and works of art in the Midwest from the end of the 19th century through the 1980s. Highlights include two Wanli wucai garlic-head vases, a Qianlong mark and period, blue and ...
Specialist, Chinese Paintings, Christie's London Dr Malcolm McNeill is a Specialist in Chinese Paintings at Christie’s, based in London. He previously worked as an assistant curator of the Chinese collections and the Victoria and Albert Museum in London, as a researcher at the British Museum, and as a translator and tour guide at the National Palace Museum in Taipei.
The Christie's Education 2020 Conference: The Chinese Art Market 18 Jun 2019 Christie’s Education is delighted to announce our first international academic conference in Asia which will take place in Hong Kong from 26-27 November 2020 at the Hong Kong Convention and Exhibition Centre and will run in parallel with Christie’s Hong Kong Autumn Auctions.
The summer Chinese Art sale in Hong Kong will feature works of art from several private collections, including Qing porcelains and textile from the collection of the legendary Chinese art dealer A. W. Bahr (1877–1959), fine gilt bronze Buddhist sculptures from an old Hong Kong collection, an East Asian collection of Qing dynasty wine cups and jades, and a Japanese collection of Song ceramics ...
Sotheby's Chinese Works of Art Department holds two auctions each year in London, New York, Hong Kong and Paris.
Chinese Art - View Auction details, bid, buy and collect the various artworks at Sothebys Art Auction House.
With more than 340 Chinese works of art dating from the Neolithic to the Republic periods, highlights of this sale include a selection of Qing Imperial monochromes from the collection of Arnold and Blema Steinberg, early ceramics from the Art Institute of Chicago and Chinese porcelain and works of art from the collection of Henry Arnhold.
Results: Sotheby's Asia Week achieved $52.4 million in six strong auctions, exceeding pre-sale estimates. With 76.5% of lots sold and 60.3% of lots surpassing high estimates, the Asian art sales at Sotheby's indicate continued collector interest in the finest works of art from China, India and and the Himalayas.
Today's sale of Important Chinese Art will proceed as planned with sessions at 10 AM and 2 PM EDT. Sotheby's will be monitoring the weather conditions throughout the day and will be available to coordinate alternative bidding options should conditions make it difficult for clients to attend the auction in person.
Bonhams Chinese Art department is renowned for offering the finest works of art representing the richness and breadth of China's artistic heritage, particularly Imperial porcelain, white and spinach green jades, cloisonné and Buddhist art. Specialised international auctions are held globally, including London, Hong Kong and San Francisco.
Bonhams : Chinese Works of Art We use cookies to remember choices you make on functionality and personal features to enhance your experience to our site. By continuing to use our site you consent to the use of cookies. Please refer to our privacy and cookie policies for more information.
Bonhams Fine Art Auctioneers & Valuers: auctioneers of art, pictures, collectables and motor cars. We use cookies to remember choices you make on functionality and personal features to enhance your experience to our site. By continuing to use our site you consent to the use of cookies. ... Chinese Art (US) General enquiries
Bonhams : Fine Chinese Art We use cookies to remember choices you make on functionality and personal features to enhance your experience to our site. By continuing to use our site you consent to the use of cookies. Please refer to our privacy and cookie policies for more information.
Bonhams Fine Art Auctioneers & Valuers: auctioneers of art, pictures, collectables and motor cars Bonhams : Asian Art We use cookies to remember choices you make on functionality and personal features to enhance your experience to our site.
Bonhams are international auctioneers of fine Chinese and Japanese art. We specialise in rare Imperial and Export Chinese ceramics and works of art, as well as Japanese ceramics, fine and decorative works of art from the Neolithic Period to the 20th century. View on map
Bonhams Fine Art Auctioneers & Valuers: auctioneers of art, pictures, collectables and motor cars. We use cookies to remember choices you make on functionality and personal features to enhance your experience to our site. By continuing to use our site you consent to the use of cookies. ... Asian Art Bonhams. Work. 22 Queen St.