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Is this a genuine Qianlong Period vase?
I'm new to the forum, but I've been following bidamount for some time now.
The reason I'm reaching out is because I just saw yesterday's video of Peter on Youtube, and it got me wondering about a recent purchase that I made of an alleged Qianlong Period vase.
Here's Peter's video:
In it, Peter seems to mention many times that foot rims being pasty or sandy looking, are always 19th to 20th century, and that worries me because it seems to be the case of this particular vase.
Can you guys have a look at it, and please tell me what you think?
It would mean a lot to me.
Photos are in attachment.
Thank you guys
Welcome to the forum.
I am very interested to hear the verdict on this. The rim doesn’t look late 19th century to me, seems older, but that is just my amateur guess.
There are some serious experts here, they will be able to give you a reliable answer.
take it with a grain of salt
To me it doesn’t look bad, but let’s wait for the experts.
I am interested too. If you had asked if it was late 19th c I might be inclined to agree but I am not sure it is Qianlong - is the shape elegant enough? Does it look a bit bottom heavy? I mean it sags downwards instead of rising up from the foot. That could just be the way the photos are taken, of course.
Looking forward to hearing the verdict. Fingers crossed for you!
By the way, if I may ask, did you pay a Qianlong price for it and how large is it?
Firstly welcome to the forum.
Not my area of interest atm as I am more into republican period porcelain.
I believe your vase has been ground down. Hence the odd look/shape of mouth.
The depicted peonies are beautifully done. Nice white glaze.
I think your vase would either be genuine qianlong period or perhaps a tad later. 😊
Did you buy this as a genuine period or was it described as 18/19th century or other?
Shall be very interested in what others may think.
Hi DG - and as with Todd and Mark, welcome to this great Forum ...
Not really my area either, but rather a curious and interesting piece ...
Concur with Mark's comment regarding the mouth rim, you can see a very distinctive line separating the body and the interior glaze ...
You say 'purchase of an alleged Qianlong period vase', so would also like to hear how acquired and 'described', before commenting further ...
Hello everyone and thank you all for the kind replies.
The vase was bought as Qianlong Period at a good auction house in Europe, and yes the mouth has been ground down a little bit. Sorry, I forgot to mention that…
As for the price payed, I believe It was a good buy, but was it a Qianlong price? That I honestly don’t know. May I ask how much would that be in your opinion? 🙂
The vase is 17in tall.
If it were genuine qianlong, then the ground down neck would reduce the price significantly but such a vase would still cost , I guess, in the low thousands of euros rather than the hundreds.
My feeling is that this one could be later - the decoration does not seem fine enough or precise enough for Qianlong. If you watch Peter's video where he discusses heaping and piling on blue and white porcelain, this looks here quite crude, with uniform dark patches at the edges of the leaves etc.
I agree the footrim is more consistent with the rounded , compressed ones of C19th pieces shown in the video , rather than C18th pieces, and there are no iron oxide lines or traces inside or outside the footrim, which can be an indication of later C19th production.
Also, for a vase of this stature and decoration , if it were made in the C18th, you might expect to see a reign mark (?).
Hi DG -
Some attached images and descriptions for comparison to the flower scroll, base lotus panels, pendents and plantain leafs on your vase ...
1, Qianlong mark/period bottle vase, Lot 3027, Sothebys HK, 8 October 2019, sold for HK$687,500 ..
2, Qianlong mark/period vase, Huaihaitang Coll, Hong Kong ...
These two pieces are the closest I have been able to find to the type of flower scroll, probably depicting ‘foreign type’ lotuses, seen on your piece ...
Notice the painting style differences of the flower scroll, the pendents and the plantain leaves, the way dots have been applied to simulate the Ming ‘heap and piled’ effect, between these examples and your piece - all markedly different, especially to the base lotus panels ...
Although images are, at best, subjective, personally I would concur with Tam’s thoughts, the overall decoration just does not appear fine enough for QL, or indeed 18th century, and the foot appears more 19th C then 18th C, IMO ...
As mentioned however, this really isn’t my area, so I will be interested to hear others opinions on this ...
The last two pieces are examples of unmarked 18th C pieces ...
3, A large ‘moon’ flask decorated with lotus scrolls, Huaihaitang Coll, HK. This emulates the early 15th C Imperial Ming Yongle/Xuande type, and is of exceptional quality ...
4, 18th C B/W bottle vase, Lot 138, Bonhams London, 6 November 2014, sold for £12,000. I saw/handled this piece whilst at Robert McPherson’s gallery several years earlier - a lovely piece, again of high quality ...
Wow Stuart, thanks for all that research, it really puts things into perspective.
And thank you all who have responded as well, of course. You guys have all been too kind.
As for the vase itself, these are very disappointing news... I was convinced it was genuine mainly due to the auction house reputation, but that shows we can never be to careful.
Sorry guys, I forgot I had better shots of the vase…
Anyway, I wonder if these make any difference on your evaluation?
Also I did found these two relatable examples:
I have looked and looked to see why I feel it lacks the up-lifting, elegant 18th c shape. Proportionally, there is not much in it; maybe yours has a slightly wider neck and a slightly dumpier look to its belly, but that could be enough to make the difference.
However, I just noticed that it is also the way the pattern is structured on the vases with similar(ie banded) decoration. If you look, you will see that the scrolling flower part of the pattern on your vase, starts much lower down which has the effect of dragging the eye down and focussing on that wider part. Maybe that is why it looks less elegant and more stout? It also means the lower band seems hidden somewhat by the lower curve. None of that really seems to happen in the 18th c examples.
It is a nice vase, but I still think it is more likely a late 19th c version.
I'm afraid that I have to agree with the others, that this is a late Qing piece, or possibly even Republic, when this painting style was very popular. I know all too well how much it hurts to hear disappointing news after spending a lot, as it's certainly happened to me, and I suspect most here. The shade of cobalt and detail of painting just don't quite have the vibrancy or "look" of a Qianlong piece. A good challenge would be to try to find a Qianlong era vase with the identical form, including tapering of the neck, etc. The glaze on the base inside the footrim has a sort of "painted on" look that I've seen on a number of Republic vases, but a Qianlong base should really be more glassy and perfect. Republic vases I think can be even harder to tell than late Qing, because the footrims were cleaned up and more precise. I hope that I'm wrong and that it turns out to be correct.
Here is a Qianlong M&P vase from Bonham's that has a lot of great close up shots...you can really see how they did the heaped and piled look during that era, as well as how perfect the base looks. https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/24904/lot/284/
I’m sure it is disappointing. But...your vase is just as beautiful as it was yesterday. It is quite an attractive piece. As mlvbs says, anyone who collects Asian porcelain has had their fair share of disappointment. But no one has stated that they are 100% sure from hence it originates. Opinions were a bit mixed and pictures can be somewhat misleading at times. The result is not exactly definitive...
take it with a grain of salt
Hi DG -
My pleasure to forward previous images and descriptions ...
Attached images of the Christie’s, first image and Sotheby’s, second image, vases you traced next to your piece, the third image, for direct comparisons. The Sothebys vase is much closer to yours overall ...
As mentioned, look at the painting style of the flower scrolls, the plantain leaves to neck, the downward facing pendents and the lotus panels around the base, the application of the ‘dots’ and the overall flow of the designs between the two auction house vases and yours - the difference are obvious ...
As with mlvbs and Todd, please don’t be disappointed, anyone who collects - whatever the subject - has made mistakes, it’s how we learn. And, as Todd mentions, opinions here have varied and are not yet definitive, so I would also be inclined wait to wait and hear other opinions ...
Your vase is still a nice piece ...
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