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Important Japanese works of art.

 
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Brian Crowe
 Brian Crowe
(@lotusblack)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 4269
Topic starter 02/07/2021 2:00 pm  

 

Dear members 

I recently purchased these three large molded servers from a local shop in Colorado my second home. I have been informed that they are early Japanese porcelain plate. 17th century. But I need more data as to dating because I will be selling these in the future. No one I talked to has seen them or comparisons but I know members here have amazing knowledge. One of the reasons I am showing these is much is talked about spur marks one of the plates has a spur still intact. This makes this a great study. Thanks

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DD803276 3199 421A 801A 0E1794BDA3F9
8319188B 903C 4238 AB6B 9BCBFBCD471A
05409F4A B133 4075 8CB8 79CA1C24CA69
42DDDFFD 5EE4 4D68 ACD1 0A23D5AF3128

   
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Adams Asian Art
 Adams Asian Art
(@imperialfinegems)
Mark Adams
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 7142
02/07/2021 3:18 pm  

Very nice acquisition!

Difficult to determine age. I think possible late Edo period.

Mark 


   
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Brian Crowe
 Brian Crowe
(@lotusblack)
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Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 4269
Topic starter 02/07/2021 3:41 pm  

I forgot to mention the blue glaze is on top of the white glaze coated with a third transparent glaze. These are signs of early Imari Arita porcelain. I will show close ups of the clear glaze separating. Either way them plates surviving together is rare in it self.

This post was modified 4 years ago by Brian Crowe

   
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 Julia
(@julia)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 7283
03/07/2021 2:02 am  

Very attractive, love the design! How big are they - I assume a server is a plate size? I am a bit puzzled why one plate only has one spur and the other you show has several.

Like Mark I find these are not the easiest to date, but I also think late Edo maybe 1850. 


   
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Brian Crowe
 Brian Crowe
(@lotusblack)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 4269
Topic starter 03/07/2021 8:03 am  

@julia there are chargers the one with the Y spur is the largest I will measure them today with more pictures. I’m still trying to find comparisons. The shape of the chargers seem a little odd. To me. 


   
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 Julia
(@julia)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 7283
03/07/2021 10:07 am  

Thanks Brian.  I wasn't sure the difference in size was just a distortion from where you were standing when taking the photos.


   
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Brian Crowe
 Brian Crowe
(@lotusblack)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 4269
Topic starter 03/07/2021 11:55 am  

@julia I was standing about 3 feet. So the smallest is 12 inches across 2nd one is 13 inches and the largest is 14 inches. My early Imari date is solely based on Met Museums information I am posting it below. The shape of the plates and design does not fit with anything I have seem. I’m wondering if these where made in China for Japanese market but Chinese didn’t use spur or overglaze it’s enamels.

Most early Imari pieces feature designs painted in cobalt blue on a white ground, then coated in a transparent glaze, in the style known as underglaze blue (1975.268.477). The porcelain has a coarse, grainy texture and the designs are generally carried out by a free, fluid hand. The technique of painting pictoral designs under a clear glaze was sometimes employed on Karatsu ware, so early Imari may have in part stemmed from this earlier tradition.

Here is the picture of the transparent glaze chipping off the white body the blue colbalt reminds me of Kangxi colbalt. I’m not saying it is. And a picture of the course grit.

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55FB7A5B C7EE 457D BD0C 30166745CFAF
A9A8C425 7A7B 466A 96B7 884AF7FF312F

 

This post was modified 4 years ago by Brian Crowe

   
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Brian Crowe
 Brian Crowe
(@lotusblack)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 4269
Topic starter 03/07/2021 12:10 pm  

Better picture of  transparent glaze. I forgot to mention the plates were gilded but the gilding has worn off.

9CA805F6 1DE4 418D 9968 5DB0B321BE19
3AD82719 BC81 430E 84D0 384C4BD417E4
This post was modified 4 years ago by Brian Crowe

   
ReplyQuote
 Julia
(@julia)
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Posts: 7283
03/07/2021 12:28 pm  

They are a beautiful set and nice sizes, too. 

I still think the back is very late Edo/ possibly early Meiji from which you can tell I still think Japanese. I feel the cranes decoration is very Japanese (I think we had a thousand cranes plate on here before) as well as the back. I am not convinced it is earlier,  the colours, the style of decoration on the back.

What is it you find unusual about the shape? Do you mean unusual for Japanese full stop or or for a certain time frame? 

On the other hand, I am pretty certain a very large Chinese plate I own, also has a spur. It is what is referred to as pre-bencharong by some people and described as 18th c. I am not sure, I feel mine are 19th. Apart from the spur and the shape there jsn't a lot of similarity - the reverses seem to be plain, spur marks are an exception, and the colours are usually quite bright and vibrant. 

I am fairly sure yours are Japanese but you may want to check that Chinese style out. 


   
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Brian Crowe
 Brian Crowe
(@lotusblack)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 4269
Topic starter 03/07/2021 1:02 pm  

@julia have you ever seen Japanese plates molded in this manner? The entire motif is molded.

 


   
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 Julia
(@julia)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 7283
03/07/2021 1:13 pm  

Ah, I thought you meant the shape! 😊 

I would guess they are decorative items then.possibly made at a time when the more middling social classes (economically) could spare the money to purchase decorative pieces indicative of their increasing financial security and to copy the more wealthy members of society.

That is all I can think of. Will see if I can turn up moulded items later.


   
Sharon P reacted
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 Julia
(@julia)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 7283
03/07/2021 1:31 pm  

https://www.catawiki.com/en/l/42527221-plate-imari-porcelain-with-apocryphal-mark-ken-qianlong-colorful-oval-porcelain-plate-with-a-dynamic-high-relief-decoration-of-leaves-in-the-wind-japan-meiji-period-1868-1912


   
Sharon P reacted
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 Julia
(@julia)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 7283
03/07/2021 1:44 pm  

https://www.ebay.com/itm/124379306447


   
Sharon P reacted
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Brian Crowe
 Brian Crowe
(@lotusblack)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 4269
Topic starter 03/07/2021 1:47 pm  

@julia thanks I can’t understand why they added a Qainlong mark? That’s another day. I sent the plates off for Peter to review. I’m going to sell them and not mislead on time and value. I believe if the are late Edo or Meiji they will still make a good server set. I don’t know a value on something like this Peter has better knowledge. But I’m hopeful for a few hundred dollars.


   
Sharon P reacted
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 Julia
(@julia)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 7283
03/07/2021 1:51 pm  

I would be, too. I think they are lovely. The Ken mark can be seen on Gotheborg in the Japanese marks section. There may be some explanation there. Let us know what Peter says. Fingers crossed!


   
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