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Hello,
I think this Vase is from the Tang Dynasty. It has a nice Dragon as decor. I suggest it to be Tang Dynasty due to the handles and the "wavy decor line".
I have offered it at Catawiki with that dating but they are not really sure... Maybe one of you could help out and has maybe seen one of these Funerary Vases before and confirm/discard my dating?
34x16 cm
Thank you!
with Best Regards...
Carsten
Hello! This is a bit out of my circle of knowledge (I've only had a few Tang pieces over the years), but if you think this could be Tang dynasty just because of the style of dragon handles, without taking into consideration the glaze and form of the vessel, I think you've started off on the wrong foot with your evaluation of this piece.
A quick Google search for 'Tang Dynasty dragon jar' brings up some nice examples of Tang dynasty period vessels with dragons handles. Here's an example from the MET:
https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/49553
While there certainly could be some variation between each individual vessel made in the Tang dynasty, the Chinese were among the most consistent in producing a very uniform design and sticking to it throughout history.
I do not see enough similarities in the dragon handle, or any other part of your vessel compared to the MET example, or other museum or auction pieces.
Tang dynasty pieces are famous for their brilliant Sancai (three color) glazes. Loss of glaze does occur, but your piece appears to have never been glazed, or has a flat black glaze.
The overall form is rendered a bit of kilter, with the lip of the mouth a bit tilted up, handles roughly formed and sort of pressed on without consideration to the overall shape of the vessel. Consequently, I think the vessel looks crowded around the neck...not what I have seen on Tang pieces.
Finally, the pottery used in all the Tang pieces I've owned is a white to pale pink clay, with no iron. Your first photo seems to show some iron red coming through in the firing on the mouth and neck (top left in the photo).
If I were to describe it, it looks to me to be some type of unglazed or perhaps mat glazed raku pottery. As for age....best to declare 20th c. unless you're prepared to back it up with a TL test
I hope I'm not bumming you out with my detailed response. I just like to be concise...we are all students in this, and this is how we all learn.
Best!
Â
Hello,
Example 1, shows the same flared rim around the vase and the same style handles:
Example 2, shows a Funerary Vase of the Liao Dynasty, a typical later example of funerary vase with elongated neck.
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/27780405_chinese-liao-dynasty-ad-907-1125-pottery-vase-with
Example 3, a Vase sold on Ebay from a collection. Displays the same features, but no dragon.
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/ornate-tang-dynasty-funerary-urn-1661669461 example 4, a vase currently beeing offered at etsy.com/UK. In the same style.
https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/529895767/chinese-ceramic-amphora-excavated-tang
Hope the gives you an insight of my dating.
I know Ebay and etsy are not really a reliable source for dating. But interesting that both were dated this way 🤔
That's what I found...Â
Â
with Best Regards...
Carsten
Hmmmm.
You think your handles look like the ones in Example 1? I think they are quite different in the quality of the rending. Exmaple 1 is quite well balances and elegant. Â
Example 2 came from Kodner Galleries. I have know Bruce Kodner & Josh Kodner for over a decade, and they are good people, but Asian specialists they are not. The dating and authenticity of their piece is highly speculative.
Example 3 & 4 (Ebay and Etsy).... how do I put this. If you are going to use fakes and copies as measuring sticks for authenticity, then you will have some real challenges developing your skills and knowledge.
You have to start by comparing your vase with the best resources, like museums and major auction houses. If you can't find a comparable piece among these two resources, then it is unlikely to be genuine or of the period.
Â
I know Ebay and etsy are not really a reliable source for dating. But interesting that both were dated this way 🤔
@Greeno107 Regarding the handles I wrote that they: "...show the same style handles" I didn't write they look the same.
And surely you will find a 'Tang Dynasty dragon jar' if you google for it, but this is not a dragon jar.
This is a funerary vase. If you google that you can find various examples with similar features including the basic structure of the vase shape and ornamentation.Â
This vase has also no glazing. By the decay of the body from being buried in a moist environment (please look at the white crust that has build up and the discoloration of the body that shows in what angle the vase was buried) one could even suggest that it never had one.
Also the Vase has almost no smell of clay to it which is typical for very old pieces! A little knowledge I picked up from an Antiques dealer who sells a lot of Ancient Roman and Greec Antiques which are unglazed...Â
with Best Regards...
Carsten
Perhaps ask Peter?
MarkÂ
I think you are critiquing me on semantics regarding my evaluation of your handles. From what I see, the handles of the museum example you gave and your jar are not similar in style, shape, thickness, glaze, etc. Sorry, we just disagree.
The use of dragon design in the Tang seems to be specific to handles, not as applied decoration. Â
There are examples in the Song dynasty of applied dragons to funerary jars, but the glaze and form are quite different than your vessel.
You are welcome to disregard my opinion. No hard feelings.
Â
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Hi Carsten,
Are you saying your vase doesn't smell? I recall reading that they should smell exactly like something that has been in damp earth for a long time.
I can't say much as I do not have the expertise but the Etsy example is very typical of a style of copying, whereby the item appears to have almost been washed in terracotta dust. They do it with celadons, too. It can quite attractive, I bought a celadon Quanyin of this type, just because I knew it would look nice among potted plants.Â
I am not saying yours is a fake, I don't know but these things are copied. I would ask Peter, or send photos to Christies.
Julia
@greeno107 Sorry, I just had the feeling we were talking past each other. And I think it is good to disagree or it is not a discussion but a mere conversation. Sorry if I offended you!
And the thing with the dragon aplique/handles was just what made me question if this could be an earlier version of the Song Dynasty funerary vases.
@Julia 😅 Hard to describe a smell... But it has lost the typical smell of a newly potted piece. If you own a terracotta pot, you will recongnize a certain smell to it. This smell gets weaker. And as you wrote, it gets replaced by an earthy smell regarding burial objects.
I totally agree, the pieces from Ebay and Etsy are not eligible to be called burial pieces. I was just wandering about these being dated as Tang because the forger copies an onther object and it's dating. So what might be the forgers basis for this, if the Vase posted by me is a copy...
@shinigami Yeah... that "old smell" is just hard to describe 😅 Sorry for the lack of applicable vocabulary from my side! In my opinion haptic and fragrance are important too for evaluation. Especially for this kind of older objects.
with Best Regards...
Carsten
Well, this has been another illuminating topic for me! I didn't realize I should be smelling things as well! As if I wasn't already enough of an oddball, now I will be the guy at the antique store over in the corner huffing on vases and the like. This hobby just gets more interesting by the day....  Â
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