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I have looked again at the vase, and checked on Gotheborg, to see if I change my mind about 19th c in the light of everything that has been said. I agree with Birgit's dating. There is only one woman that I can see in the photos and she has gold in her hair. Moreover, it is exactly the same type of headgear (even with that thing waving in the air) as Tommy Eklof shows in his evidence for the late Daoguang-Xianfeng-Tongzhi-early Guangxu period. The faces fit with his examples, too.
It is also quite chintzy. I am not saying that Chinese porcelain would necessarily have been influenced by the wider world, but if this were an export piece, destined for a UK market, it is conceivable that Victorian taste may have been a consideration.
Hi Julia, Birgit and Tam:
I don't think we are far apart on this. I think Julia and Birgit think it's 19th century and Tam and I think it's early 20th century. I do, however, agree with Tam that this vase is an outlier, or, as I said, atypical. It just does not look like the multiple Rose Medallion/Mandarin vases one sees on eBay. Those are instantly recognizable even from a distance and their predominant color is often green or they have a greenish appearance overall. This vase seems to have blue and pink as its predominant colors. Also, the band of decoration immediately above the foot rim does not fit the usual pattern for Rose Medallion/Mandarin porcelains. I think Tam's suggestion that it was decorated somewhere other than mainland China could explain some of these discrepancies. We will never know, but this has been an interesting exercise.
As far as the classification is concerned, I am going to defer to Peter's classification although the overlaps often make the classification difficult to apply in individual cases.
Regards,
Errol
Dear Errol,
you're right, Rose Mandarin is an easily recognizable style. It was made in great amounts for export and that's why so many people know it. Michael's vase isn't Rose Mandarin to me, not even a deviated kind of it. It's just a different kind of vase that could be made for the mainland Chinese as well as for the export market. They made so many different (and sometimes surprisingly nice) things during Tongzhi and Guangxu and this is one of them. The faces with the upward looking eyes are very typical for the time, you will find them on many other items but not on Rose Mandarin, which have their own typical faces. Sorry for my confusing Rose Medallion and Rose Mandarin but I wrote the post in the middle of the night because I couldn't sleep, but obviously I wasn't 100% awake.
Dear Julia, thanks for expressing a thought I also had now and then. Apart from the explicit wishes of the European buyers there seems to have been some influence from the west to the east at all times. Fashions in the west left their traces on Chinese porcelain. For example Qianlong items often have a special kind of elegance that reminds me of the European style of the 18th century. Or take Michael's vase, it would fit perfectly into a Victorian interior, as you said. Another example are the faces on Chinese porcelain of the 1970s and 1980s that are quite easily recognisable because of their heavy eye make up - just like in real life in the West.
Best regards,
Birgit
Birgit
Dear All,
Thank you so much ! For taking so much interest in our broken vase. I have learned a great deal. Julia you are correct only one lady, you are right about the horse he has almost a grin, but his legs , mane and tail are realistically drawn. In another post I made yesterday 2 food jars there is a horse I that think is very well painted for cheap 20th century food jar. In this vase all the figures have expressive faces, cleverly painted so few brush strokes but you can almost tell what they are thinking. In one of the square panels the lordly looking genital- man with the black mustache looks displeased with the young man before him. I have re looked at the vase in daylight today to my eyes the background porcelain has a very slight greenish tinge, it's hard to see the light has to right. On the inside the glaze is quite thick and is bobberly ... I think flocculent is a better word. I think I will take it outside tomorrow and try and find a spot with a nice even light and photograph it again and try to capture that green tinge. I think the flash washed out most of the details. Looking at it closely under magnification some of the figures the ones in armour look to my eye to be wearing Japanese clothing almost round eyes. The dark pink glaze on the dog handles has a luster look to it like you see on old English north country pottery. Will see what tomorrow and my camera will bring. Thanks to you all again it has been educational and very interesting.
Michael.
Dear All,
Have tried to capture the very feint green tinge to the body of this vase without successes my lack of skill and the cheapness of my lens. Have packed it away ready for the house move will see it again in the new year and decide then what to do.
Thanks again to everybody for all the wisdom.
Michael
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