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@bartholin don't worry I didn't take any offence to your comment at all... As I just said in my previous comment, I don't think it was made to fool anyone thou..
I hope you're right, Thomas. I can't wait to see an update on this. 🙂
@bartholin OK, Look like it's time to send it to peter for an appraisal, and I'll have a few others look at it too...
To be honest, I am not sure it is always talented artists making the fakes. The people doing the copies may well have an aptitude for art, but the nuances in decorative features in different periods may not be fully appreciated or expressed in the work they produce.
Let us know when you hear back from Peter or anyone else. Good luck!
@thomasumjohnson it might not be the potter doing the aging. Modern pieces can be reglazed re-fired chemically altered and artificially aged. Marks are even added. I’ve seen many dealers add dirt stain bury scratches with abrasives. Knowing somebody with less experience would jump on it for more money. This plaque has so many questions it’s could be totally authentic if so we will all have learned a great deal. If not we still have learn a great deal win win. I’m hoping it’s Authentic. As for it not being framed it most likely was in something maybe a screen with that much ware unframed would probably be broke clipped or cracked.
@thomasumjohnson You're bringing up great points, and they have been raised by others before. Another one is the different levels of artistry that can exist in the same era. If one were to apply Imperial standards to dating, then almost all pieces would fall short of being considered authentic. But obviously, most pieces are not Imperial in quality, and yet many are still authentic to the period. And then there are still lesser quality pieces than that, etc. Sometimes, the art on an old piece is so bad, it seems fake, just like how the art on new pieces can be so good they can seem authentically old. But I think the extra trickiness is with the pieces that blur the lines and fall in between with the quality of their rendering. They seem good enough in some ways, but in others they fall a little short of expectations. I would point out that in some cases, those nuances can be simply explained by the limitations of the artists involved in the making of the object, rather than being a modern fake. We have to be careful not to hold mid-grade items to high grade standards if we are using quality of artistry as a dating tool.
I find it interesting that everyone involved in this discussion finds the plaque to be quite nice, and yet the gut instincts are being overridden by the technical details. We have to have both of those faculties in balance, because sometimes an over focus on the technical aspects can cause us to miss out on the whole piece. We need technicals, and we also need our more subjective artistic instincts if we are going to see things fully.
The other part of these debates I find interesting is that we like to challenge others to show an authentic comp for a piece, and the absence of one close enough is cited as justification to doubt the authenticity of the piece. Comps are useful, but how about we flip it around, and challenge ourselves to find another plaque like this that is an obvious fake. Can anyone produce a comp? If not, then are we justified in labelling it older by default? That is what has been happening in this discussion the other way around - it's got no exact comp so it must be a fake, etc.... But clearly it is not that black and white. So that is why I think going by only known examples, and not staying open to considering that slightly different authentic renderings can emerge that we had not seen before, is a recipe for missing out on finding some wonderfully unique and authentic items.
I have followed this pretty closely and haven't responded because plaques are not something I have come across and really do not know about them too much. One thing I can comment on is the artistry. I recently posted a vase on here with dragons, that was intended to be an imitation of a Qianlong vase, or an homage, with many details added so as to not deceive. I ran it by Peter and he agreed with my thoughts on it and that the artistry was above the usual standard for such pieces. I have no doubt that yours was decorated by a good hand, and even if it is newer (I suspect 1950s or later) it is extremely well done and as Brian points out could have had wear added later down the road by someone who thought they could pass it as much much older.
Here are a few shots of the vase and the dragons, so you can see what I mean... I must admit that a regular customer from China was in the shop the other day and made a very serious offer, even as a modern piece, purely for the amount of work that went into it.
I hope this helps in some small way.
Jeremy
@johnshoe almost all majors auction houses use comparable or known examples for authentication. You do understand a forgery can be almost identical. Without like pieces and excavation it’s a template for disaster. I’ve seen Picasso painting that are exact so it should be deemed authentic without providence. I’ve also have had experts tell me my piece was a $5 copy it’s was a comparable several that authenticated it not the expert.
@jbeer2121 thank you for this look at those enamels looks very familiar to me.
@jbeer2121 I’m interested in the carp fish on the vase do you have closeups you could share?
@lotusblack Let me text the guy at the shop to snap a few pics.... I am not there this week.
Jeremy
@lotusblack Hi Brian,
Thanks for you generous comments. Yes I agree, I think the artists making these things in their times were not labelling them with the modern terms we use today, they were just making art... Here's a detail of the carp, it's taken in artificial light.
Brian,
The carp are obviously just embellishments, rather than the focus of the piece unlike Thomas's, though here they are.
And do pardon the contrast.
@jbeer2121 What a fun detail! That's one of the eight Buddhist treasures, the twin fish.
As per Gotheborg:
A Pair of Fish are a symbol of marriage, conjugal felicity, fertility, tenacity. A charm against evil.
@jbeer2121 thanks I was more interested in the enamel wash feature. Modern enamel tends to be thin and spreads early enamel tends not to move this is why it’s harder to shade modern pieces.
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