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Hello again,
I have this dish which wasn;t cheap, but also not expensive. I paid around £180 for it. I'm not expecting it to be original, but it does have a rust spot and some impurities that seem to be coming to the surface. I know nothing about doucai enamels, these seem quite matte. The greens are iridescent, which I read is how they should be. I am no expert so I was wondering if anyone has an opinion about when this dish could have been made? and what you think of it? There is an iron oxide ring around the foot in places, but I understand this can be simulated. How should the enamels be (should they be matte) and how can you tell an authentic rust spot? there is
one large one and some small black specs coming to the surface.
Hi Thomas, don’t judge by rust spots, judge by common sense. If this was old and as perfect as it looks, it would be an imperial piece and you would never get it for GBP180. On the other hand GBP180 are too much for a copy, at least in my opinion.
Birgit
@shinigami Thanks Birgit, The copies of these always go for £200 or more. They never seem to go for less, even if it states it is not of the period they always sell for a few hundred. I don't know why. I'm sure if I sold it tomorrow I would get my money back. All of the Doucai dishes, from the 18th century tend to be in very good condition. What I am really interested in is, when is it from? regardless of how much I paid for it. Last year sworders in the U.K. sold an imperial vase for near half a million pounds that was bought from a charity shop for £1. Does anyone know about rust spots, the enamels, are they supposed to be matte, iridescent? (greens only), how do you identify a fake rust spot. etc.. when is it from ? - republic, 19th 18th etc.. how do you know and what about the iron oxide? is it faked? how do you know.. Here's a link to the £1 imperial charity shop vase:
https://www.antiquestradegazette.com/news/2019/charity-shop-find-sold-for-380-000-at-sworders/
@thomasumjohnson You’ve asked a really complicated question regarding how to authenticate… it takes both knowledge of both physical characteristics of the porcelain, plus knowledge of appropriate design and mark.
Specific to your bowl bearing a Yongzheng Imperial mark….
The dish should not have any iron spots. Iron spots are appropriate in earlier ceramics (Ming and before) and non-imperial wares from almost all periods.
Yongzheng doucai is amazingly beautiful in both design and color… your piece lacks both unfortunately.
Google ‘Yongzheng doucai Christie’s’ and compare.
Final note…. Sale price, high or low, does not determine authenticity. In a small auction that is not online, if they have good stuff, you can really score some great buys! Vice versus, a large online auction might have bidders just looking to push the price up on an obvious fake.
Do as others do here in the forum… ask before bidding!
Good luck!
@greeno107 Thanks for the reply. What's the difference in style / painting ability with this one. I don't see it.
http://alaintruong.canalblog.com/archives/2019/12/08/37849318.html
Also Many doucai dishes selling at sotherbys etc have a rust spot or two.. how do you know if the rust spots are real - here's one:
again I'm not impressed with the painting style or composition. Is it real much more beautiful, I don't see it..
again you see rust spots on the first example as well, on the back..
here's a better colour rendition... the other photos are washed out
@thomasumjohnson Let’s first start with the iron spot…
Qing wares, especially imperial and mark and period, are meant to be free of iron spots in the paste. The spots are imperfections, so in high quality Qing porcelains, the paste should be as pure white as humanly possible.
That doesn’t mean imperfections don’t occur, but this is NOT a way of demonstrating authenticity or age for Qing wares.
However, for the record you are comparing a rust spot on the front of your plate with the pitting on the bottom of a genuine Yongzheng M&P plate.
Yes, those dark areas are pits, not rust spots, that seem to occur mostly on the bottom of Kangxi and Yongzheng porcelains. Apples and oranges when it comes to assessing authenticity.
But forget all about the technical components of assessing authenticity and age. There is a much bigger issue.
You think your plate compares equally artistically (or is close) in both color and rendering as the examples of genuine Yongzheng doucai plates?
I’m willing to accept that much of art is subjective interpretation, BUT this is a bridge too far in the case of your plate.
Color wise, the glowing green and blues of genuine doucai make your plate look like a neon sign that is turned off… dim.
The delicate and carefully painted under glaze blue lines of the genuine doucai make your plate’s lines look like they were drawn with a magic marker.
Don’t confuse the simplicity of the overall doucai design with the complexity of how the rendering is executed. The genuine pieces are extremely fine… yours is not.
I think it is in your best interest to set aside learning rules for authentication, and spend more time looking closely at the artistry of known period pieces in museum collections and major auctions.
In the end, a piece that has all the signs of authenticity, but falls on its face with respect to its artistic merits, is worth very little to any serious collector.
@thomasumjohnson I’m putting your sage photo side by side with the sage from the genuine doucai plate. These look similar to you in execution, color, detail?
@greeno107 Thanks for the response. It looks like there are loads of 18th century doucai dishes with rust spots. I'm only trying to find out how to tell the difference between a genuine rust spot and a fake rust spot.. here are some examples on doucai dishes. If you search doucai dish on sotherbys or christies you will see a lot have rust spots.. how can you tell a real rust spot. Does anyone know?
Dear Thomas,
I told you a couple of times that you are barking a wrong tree, and Greeno too gave you an excellent adise: "I think it is in your best interest to set aside learning rules for authentication, and spend more time looking closely at the artistry of known period pieces in museum collections and major auctions."
But it seems that these are useless efforts, since you continue concentrating on absolutely irrelevant things like the "quality of rust spots".
There is nothing more to do, if you are convinced of being on the right path. Judging authenticity of doucai ware by the "quality" of rust spots is a sure way either for throwing out money or remaining at the very beginning of the path.
Regards,
Giovanni
The dish may be new, but I kind of like it and would like to hold it, depending on how much you paid, I really don't see it going down in value in the future reguardless of its actual age. JT
AN UNUSUAL DOUCAI OVOID JAR, 18TH CENTURY | Christie’s (christies.com)
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