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the song wares of five famous kilns (Ding Ru Guan Ge Jun), together with Longquan, Jizhou, Yaozhou, Jianyang, are now massively reproduced now in China. Potters of replica kilns's technique and achievement are now beyond most of people's imagination. Be very careful.
@johnshoe this is what i call high-fakes (replica that need scrutiny and experience). sorry
here is one specimen of mine for your comparison, notice the hue of glaze:
We are having a partly cloudy day, but here are some additional outside photos. I should mention there is some noticeable wear to the glaze at the high spots of the moulded design in the center of the bowl. This makes sense to me if the bowl was used as a food vessel at some time.
using phone to check your photos nearly led to mistake.
Your phoenix bowl is not Ding but Jingdezhen ware that imitated Ding during Song to favor market taste. It is genuine.
We are having a partly cloudy day, but here are some additional outside photos. I should mention there is some noticeable wear to the glaze at the high spots of the moulded design in the center of the bowl. This makes sense to me if the bowl was used as a food vessel at some time.
Are you able to elaborate on the differences you see, please? I find this very interesting.
Like Julia, I would be happy to learn more about why my piece didn’t originate at the Ding kilns. Was it a different paste, different construction technique, or different type of glaze used at the Jingdezhen site? I am intrigued.
purely statistical reason
jingdezhen bowl has such phoenix impression pattern；ding does not.
also base morphology.
experience does all
Like Julia, I would be happy to learn more about why my piece didn’t originate at the Ding kilns. Was it a different paste, different construction technique, or different type of glaze used at the Jingdezhen site? I am intrigued.
Thank you! Your response inspired me to go check my reference works on Song Ceramics and Qingbai wares from Jingdezhen. It was all laid out clearly for me to understand the origins of my dish in the Southern Song period. I found very similar decorative examples on some examples in the Percival David collection and also in the National Palace Museum, Taiwan. All of them, including mine had moulded phoenixes with long tails, set against a background of blossoms & leaves and with a Greek key pattern delimitating the decorative fields. They also talked about lower foot rims (Southern Song) vs. higher foot rims (Nothern Song).
There was a term used in A Survey of Chinese Ceramics, Sung Wares by Liu Liang-yu to describe my dish that was not explained very well. Have you heard of the term ‘Powder Ting’?
I found close examples of my dish in Qingbai Ware, Chinese Porcelain of the Song and Yuan Dynasties by Rosemary Scott, Amy Barnes, Estela Nikles, & Catherine Teo; edited by Stacey Pierson.
All in all, it has been a great learning experience.
hi, William!
It is always a great pleasure to witness someone who is seriously studying Chinese ceramics history and, as a collector carry out systematic comparison of a specific authentic item.
Let me introduce myself first: I am the translator of Colors of Chinese Ceramics, and Patterns of Chinese Ceramics (American Academic Press, 2022). This is the publication sponsored by Chinese Social Science Fund. And i have been collecting and studying sherds and complete pieces of Song and Tang and Yuan for more than 15 years. I own more than 5000 specimens of the eight major kiln's of Song Dynasty (Ru, Guan, Ge, Jun, Ding, Yaozhou, Jizhou, Longquan, Jian) and Jingdehzne wares. I also have extensive dialog and constant interaction with dealers home and abroad.
To say all the above, is to answer your question with a background.
Honestly, the quoted books you mentioned all made contribution of a kind to study of Chinese ceramics. However, due to their lack of direct contact of what is happening in recent 20 years of Chinese ceramics study and collection alive, their publication often contain incorrect or at least obscure or partial understanding in theory and practice. Fro example, you mentioned high foot-northern song, low foot-southern song. But in fact, the situation is far more complex than that.
As i said, experience does all. I know Southern Ding (Jingdezhen wares imitating Ding wares) through actual pieces, most of which are sherds. Their difference from the Northern Ding, as i planned only talk in private as this is my own intellectual property, for example, is more like this: 1. southern Ding glaze more often cracks. 2. Southern Ding's unlgaze rim often has slight orange hue (we call "huo shi hong" as common in all Jingdezhen wares). 3. most importantly, Southern Ding impression patterns have their own style and examples that are easily recognizable and distinct of their own, if you have seen them for 1000 times or 500 times. 4. as a secret, let me tell you Northern Ding bowls nearly all have a feature on the bottom of their foot rim: a kind of wrinkle due to attachment when cooling before put into kiln and after glazing stage on a shelf or board. This phenomenon is restricted to up firing ones, not the inverted (up side down)firing ones. There are more reasons.
So far.
Perhaps we need to build some private contact?
Thank you! Your response inspired me to go check my reference works on Song Ceramics and Qingbai wares from Jingdezhen. It was all laid out clearly for me to understand the origins of my dish in the Southern Song period. I found very similar decorative examples on some examples in the Percival David collection and also in the National Palace Museum, Taiwan. All of them, including mine had moulded phoenixes with long tails, set against a background of blossoms & leaves and with a Greek key pattern delimitating the decorative fields. They also talked about lower foot rims (Southern Song) vs. higher foot rims (Nothern Song).
There was a term used in A Survey of Chinese Ceramics, Sung Wares by Liu Liang-yu to describe my dish that was not explained very well. Have you heard of the term ‘Powder Ting’?
I found close examples of my dish in Qingbai Ware, Chinese Porcelain of the Song and Yuan Dynasties by Rosemary Scott, Amy Barnes, Estela Nikles, & Catherine Teo; edited by Stacey Pierson.
All in all, it has been a great learning experience.
what i say about restricted to up firing ones is still partly incorrect.
complex
quote data-userid="137" data-postid="84879"]
hi, William!
It is always a great pleasure to witness someone who is seriously studying Chinese ceramics history and, as a collector carry out systematic comparison of a specific authentic item.
Let me introduce myself first: I am the translator of Colors of Chinese Ceramics, and Patterns of Chinese Ceramics (American Academic Press, 2022). This is the publication sponsored by Chinese Social Science Fund. And i have been collecting and studying sherds and complete pieces of Song and Tang and Yuan for more than 15 years. I own more than 5000 specimens of the eight major kiln's of Song Dynasty (Ru, Guan, Ge, Jun, Ding, Yaozhou, Jizhou, Longquan, Jian) and Jingdehzne wares. I also have extensive dialog and constant interaction with dealers home and abroad.
To say all the above, is to answer your question with a background.
Honestly, the quoted books you mentioned all made contribution of a kind to study of Chinese ceramics. However, due to their lack of direct contact of what is happening in recent 20 years of Chinese ceramics study and collection alive, their publication often contain incorrect or at least obscure or partial understanding in theory and practice. Fro example, you mentioned high foot-northern song, low foot-southern song. But in fact, the situation is far more complex than that.
As i said, experience does all. I know Southern Ding (Jingdezhen wares imitating Ding wares) through actual pieces, most of which are sherds. Their difference from the Northern Ding, as i planned only talk in private as this is my own intellectual property, for example, is more like this: 1. southern Ding glaze more often cracks. 2. Southern Ding's unlgaze rim often has slight orange hue (we call "huo shi hong" as common in all Jingdezhen wares). 3. most importantly, Southern Ding impression patterns have their own style and examples that are easily recognizable and distinct of their own, if you have seen them for 1000 times or 500 times. 4. as a secret, let me tell you Northern Ding bowls nearly all have a feature on the bottom of their foot rim: a kind of wrinkle due to attachment when cooling before put into kiln and after glazing stage on a shelf or board. This phenomenon is restricted to up firing ones, not the inverted (up side down)firing ones. There are more reasons.
So far.
Perhaps we need to build some private contact?
Thank you! Your response inspired me to go check my reference works on Song Ceramics and Qingbai wares from Jingdezhen. It was all laid out clearly for me to understand the origins of my dish in the Southern Song period. I found very similar decorative examples on some examples in the Percival David collection and also in the National Palace Museum, Taiwan. All of them, including mine had moulded phoenixes with long tails, set against a background of blossoms & leaves and with a Greek key pattern delimitating the decorative fields. They also talked about lower foot rims (Southern Song) vs. higher foot rims (Nothern Song).
There was a term used in A Survey of Chinese Ceramics, Sung Wares by Liu Liang-yu to describe my dish that was not explained very well. Have you heard of the term ‘Powder Ting’?
I found close examples of my dish in Qingbai Ware, Chinese Porcelain of the Song and Yuan Dynasties by Rosemary Scott, Amy Barnes, Estela Nikles, & Catherine Teo; edited by Stacey Pierson.
All in all, it has been a great learning experience.
I can certainly understand there might be times where you might wish to communicate with me on a less public venue.
My email address is [email protected]
I think many of us would like to be part of that. As someone who is trying to build a collection of older wares, I find this extremely interesting.
@jiawei-he I would also appreciate the opportunity to participate in email communication if possible. Mine is [email protected]
Cheers!
i have sent you an email from my qq mail.
Thank you! Your response inspired me to go check my reference works on Song Ceramics and Qingbai wares from Jingdezhen. It was all laid out clearly for me to understand the origins of my dish in the Southern Song period. I found very similar decorative examples on some examples in the Percival David collection and also in the National Palace Museum, Taiwan. All of them, including mine had moulded phoenixes with long tails, set against a background of blossoms & leaves and with a Greek key pattern delimitating the decorative fields. They also talked about lower foot rims (Southern Song) vs. higher foot rims (Nothern Song).
There was a term used in A Survey of Chinese Ceramics, Sung Wares by Liu Liang-yu to describe my dish that was not explained very well. Have you heard of the term ‘Powder Ting’?
I found close examples of my dish in Qingbai Ware, Chinese Porcelain of the Song and Yuan Dynasties by Rosemary Scott, Amy Barnes, Estela Nikles, & Catherine Teo; edited by Stacey Pierson.
All in all, it has been a great learning experience.
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