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Hello guys.
Interesting conversation with the alleged MP yellow plate (Guangxu).
I wanna join the game by throwing this piece of mine.
I would like to assume it is at least Republic ?
1.) irregular bubbles on glaze visible from the mark (does it mean it was made on a wood fire kiln rather than modern electric kiln).
2.) dark iron spots..
3.) foot rim - creamish white..
Please advise as I cant really tell a proper foot rim from a modern copy.
looking forward..
Al
Hmmm.... I don't think your plate matches up too well with the one sold by Christie's ... Take a look.
https://onlineonly.christies.com/s/art-china-london-winter-edition/copper-red-glazed-dish-98/63864
@superox based on the foot shape and color and the look of the base overall I would guess yours is a second half of 20th C copy. But these are tricky and my knowledge of them is limited so don't take my word for it. Maybe ask Peter if you want a more definitive assessment because he will know for sure.
@superox I think with monochrome pieces, the copies are often so close in comparison, nothing cuold be called a 'blatant' copy. It is difficult to make a judgement on monochromes on photos because often the true color is not well represented. If the plate is vibrant red, and the porcelain a vibrant white, then the piece is probably aesthetically just fine for Daoguang M&P. But, then it comes down to the technical apsects. which if you've never handled a similar M&P piece becomes very tricky.
Just yesterday, I bought a pair of really beautiful clar-de-lune lotus form censers, each with impressed 4 character Qianlong marks. The marks vary slightly on how they are rendered, so it is fair to say that the pieces are hand rendered.
On an aesthetic scale of 1 to 10 (10 being stunning), they are an 8 (mabye even a 9)... beautiful glaze and form.
However, I noticed the unusually heavy weight when I bought them and I was not familiar with the form, but I chaulked it up to possibly being due to their function as censers which might require thicker porcelain to prevent from cracking during use. So, for $200 for the pair, even as decorative pieces, I thought they were worth the money.
After some looking around online, it turns out that the form appears to be modern (at least I haven't found it), and the 4 character mark is not generally incised, except in miniature porcelain pieces or glass/cloisionne/bronze, so it doesn't quite pass the technical threshold for them to be genuine.
I think you need to research more examples of genuine pieces and be very strict about assessing how well your plate adheres to the technical aspects of a known M&P piece. If it fails even in one aspect, generally, it is a later copy.
Hi Al -
Tim @greeno107 has provided a good reference comparison via the Christies example cited, even more with his thought's/opinions on what to research and look for regarding such monochrome glazed pieces …
I can only add that the mark writing on your piece, when compared to the Christies example, contains numerous stroke errors …
Of course marks, if present, should be the last thing to consider when looking at any piece/object …
Stuart
Hi Tim, This is my first purchase of a red plate for a basic home decor plus in the hope that it is at least 50 years old. I find that one can only truly study a piece when one owns it (for me at least, but it allowed me to buy reference books and do a comp on the top 2 auction house (sotheby and Christies).
I always wonder if a typical MP piece plate has the weight of something that is slightly heavier than a modern "correlle" Corning dining plate.
This plate of my is quite heavy so I would assume that it is at least 1950+ at best.
Can one say much about the colour of the paste as a determination ? How about the black iron spots ?
I am definetely ruling out it as an MP but just as a studies body paste, how the footrim is cut and the black spots.
Thanks again as my questions are a pursuit for learning so I appreciate it.
Al
@superox Here is what I can say about color (enamel & paste) ...
The color of early to mid Qing wares' enamel is often difficult to capture with photography, but to the naked eye, I find the depth of color illuminates from the piece when held in direct sunlight. Late Qing into much of the 20th c., the vibrance of these earlier enamels was often lost (especially noticable in Langyao/ox blood/flambe). Still beautiful, but just not as rich... partly because the base white porcelain was inferior to that of earlier Qing wares.
Experience is your best guide to appreciating and understanding the difference.... I can not be taught. You have to go to some museum IN PERSON, and look at their collections. Your phone or computer is not going to illumiate the photo in the same manner as the actual piece will under good light.
The color of Daoguang porcelain paste should be very white, but not likely to be milk white as is the case with 18th c. Again, you have to see enough genuine pieces to build a mental reference for yourself. The concept is too abstract, and the fakes are quite good at copying the paste nowdays.
You will do yourself such a tremendous service if you set aside trying to learn the rules, and spend time loving the art - go to see collections in person as much as you can..... you will not regret it, and all of the rules will fall into place in time.
Meantime, consider buying the Christie's catalog that just came out - I just received mine yesterday. I'm really impressed as to how the photos are remarkably life like... much better than my computer shows the catalog online (but I have an old computer). I'm not very technical... perhaps some of the high tech monitors these days actually can show the true beauty of Chinese porcelains, but what's the fun in that?
Just to show how nice the modern copies have gotten….
Hey Tim,
Beautiful glaze on those, modern or not..... Not that it'll help you but I think those are Hibiscus petals rather than lotus.
Jeremy
@jbeer2121 Hmmm... Hibiscus? I couldn't find anything with a quick search just now. This is what I was comparing it to...
This is the bowl I was thinking of, though now that I look the petals are sort of reversed.
https://www.marchantasianart.com/buy/porcelain-works-of-art/jade-hardstone/m4988/
@jbeer2121 That's interesting. Although I'm wondering if the cover with all the holes in it is suppose to represent the seed pods in the bud.
@greeno107 That also makes quite a bit of sense, I definitely can see that.
@greeno107 Hi Tim.
Thanks. I will consider. So you can purchase the catalogue directly from sothebys ?
I did not know you can order from them. It is part of the journey and really learning the small nuance (and how it literally bakes into our brains!) that makes the difference. A lot of my purchase before was Song Dynasty pieces in 2002 so I did not have a lot of trouble lke I do now with lots of fakes (lots more than 20 years ago)... but we are not collecting just for the sake of collecting the knowledge that comes with it and the history of the piece is really the complete the whole journey. Thanks again all for your input.
Al
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