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Curious if this Sauce Boat? could be dated from the faces on it?

 
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Peter Tsai
 Peter Tsai
(@petetsai)
Reputable Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 186
Topic starter 15/03/2022 12:32 am  

Hoping for some help on this potential buy, sadly I don't have a good base shot, but I have one image that has good detail of the faces which I'm hopeful someone might be able to give me a guess on age.  Also is this properly called a sauce gravy boat?  I can't confirm but it might have an old Lowescroft China sticker on the base.  

Interesting thing I'm considering picking up if the price is great.  any and all help appreciated as always!!  I think it is about 6" tall...

side 2
detail2

 


   
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 johnshoe
(@johnshoe)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 4431
15/03/2022 2:33 pm  

I think it might be late 18th c. I typically think of gravy boats as being more elongated and shorter but perhaps there are different types. 


   
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 johnshoe
(@johnshoe)
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Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 4431
15/03/2022 2:34 pm  

Does the reticulated piece behind it come with it?


   
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 Julia
(@julia)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 7221
15/03/2022 2:38 pm  

Do you mean Lowestoft? It could be English but the faces look Qianlong in style to me.  


   
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 Julia
(@julia)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 7221
15/03/2022 2:40 pm  

Here is an English one, New Hall late 18th c.

image

   
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 Jeremy Beer
(@jbeer2121)
Famed Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 1678
15/03/2022 2:41 pm  

Peter,

I think it is likely a third quarter of the 18th century helmet form cream jug.  Very nicely decorated with Mandarin scenes.

See this similar one from Shangrila.

Jeremy

https://shangrila-antique.com/product/antique-18c-chinese-porcelain-sauce-boat-china-mandarin-rose-qianlong-period-copy/


   
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Shinigami
 Shinigami
(@shinigami)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 7 years ago
Posts: 4836
15/03/2022 3:56 pm  

Qianlong 1760-80. The form made me think of a thing called „ewer for washing“ on Rose Kerr‘s Chinese export book. But this is much larger (30 cm) I think all these forms derived from silverware. 

D988B360 CE80 4E40 B202 B5CEA08124F2

Birgit


   
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Peter Tsai
 Peter Tsai
(@petetsai)
Reputable Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 186
Topic starter 15/03/2022 8:29 pm  

@johnshoe Yes it does, it looks old and has the Lowestoft paper tag on it. I might pick them up if they aren't too much.


   
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Peter Tsai
 Peter Tsai
(@petetsai)
Reputable Member
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Posts: 186
Topic starter 15/03/2022 8:30 pm  

@julia Yes, the other plattter has the Lowestoft paper tag, which of course I misspelled last night! 😛


   
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Peter Tsai
 Peter Tsai
(@petetsai)
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Topic starter 15/03/2022 8:33 pm  

@jbeer2121 I think you are right, thanks for that link!


   
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 johnshoe
(@johnshoe)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 6 years ago
Posts: 4431
15/03/2022 8:49 pm  

@petetsai Is it an auction or a buy it now?


   
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Peter Tsai
 Peter Tsai
(@petetsai)
Reputable Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 186
Topic starter 16/03/2022 10:39 am  

It was a local timed buy it now thing.  I forgot this morning and it had sold already along with some very interesting plates, but I did buy an armorial cup that I hope was a good buy that I'll share separately.  The plate and cream jug went for $250 which was probably more then I wanted to spend on a blind 2 picture guess about it..
 

6bd43733 f126 4470 aca5 f95f0363886b xl

   
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Peter Tsai
 Peter Tsai
(@petetsai)
Reputable Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 186
Topic starter 16/03/2022 10:44 am  

So also in this sale were these two plates that I thought might be something special but in my research I found a match to some in museum, but the detail of their plate seems to be better then the plates for sale which made me think red flag...

 

96a8a9a0 7401 44df b73e 4cabd4f05be4 lg
5245e362 adbf 4009 98a7 dd56b2d78443 lg

 

this is the museum link of a matching plate.

https://www.rijksmuseum.nl/en/collection/AK-NM-13409?fbclid=IwAR1j_4N-kf4gsIqQf0O5mX5n0LlVtpV0dHxP0_LHeTL4S0v8nsmPJ-yAGFE

image

Any opinion on if I missed out big time on these?  They went for $195

 

 


   
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John Guerrero
 John Guerrero
(@bartholin)
Noble Member
Joined: 5 years ago
Posts: 788
16/03/2022 11:44 am  

@petetsai both lots would've been a complete steal. I am in love with the reticulated plate. I've never seen a piece with the that border (Similar to the 'Rockefeller" border) and a central decoration like that. To be honest, if I were buying just the reticulated plate for my collection, I'd have happily paid the price of both lots and then some. The pair is also good, and with a rare pattern/border. The Rijksmuseum piece is higher quality, but it is an armorial (arms at the top border), so it is held to a higher standard. Judging from the quality here, I can't wait to see the armorial cup you bought. Let me know if you need help identifying it and I'll check my books. 

 

Also, "Oriental Lowestoft" is an old term for Chinese export, but it has been abandoned. If you're interested in the origins of that term, let me know. I have an article somewhere that discusses it. 


   
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 Jeremy Beer
(@jbeer2121)
Famed Member
Joined: 4 years ago
Posts: 1678
16/03/2022 11:53 am  

@petetsai 

Peter,

Those are some amazing pieces, I don't want to say you made a mistake per say, especially as I assume whoever collected these likely had great taste in armorial's and I assume your won piece will be/ is great quality.  Personally I would have tripled the sale price on the first lot and possibly doubled on the second.  That reticulated dish is one of the nicest painting examples I have seen, not my intention to rub salt in a wound or anything, but just for future reference when something is that well decorated , buy it all day long.  That level of quality (on the reticulated dish) is not faked from what I have experienced. 

Jeremy

Here is a Rockefeller type reticulated dish that in my opinion cant hold a candle to the one you posted....

https://www.sothebys.com/en/buy/auction/2020/important-americana/a-chinese-export-rockefeller-pattern-reticulated


   
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