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Hello all,
I recently acquired a beautiful clair de lune porcelain vase, and would love to get other opinions on it. I am the first dealer to lay a hand on this vase as it came directly out of a house. I believe it is a 19th century vase, and everything looks pretty good to me... it's very good quality, the right height and color, and I've seen a few others in this archaic style hu form shape with mask handles that were antique.
I'm a little confused by the seal mark on the bottom though... I believe it is a Yongzheng mark but I'm not 100% sure because all the Yongzheng archaic seal marks I have seen don't have the last two characters "Nian" and "Zhi" at the end like this one does. First of all, what do the last two characters of the typical Yongzheng mark say? Is it the same thing just different looking characters? Has anyone seen another Yongzheng seal mark like this? Is this a case of a 19th century potter getting the seal mark wrong (since every archaic seal has the Nian and Zhi characters after Yongzheng), or just not right for the time period? There is a glaze contraction or skip right next to the seal mark, which kind of squished the right characters. Lastly, I found a few similar looking foot rims, but not perfectly exact. How does this foot look for a 19th century piece?
Thank you all for your opinions and help!
This is hard to judge - the shape of the vase , the glaze colour and characteristics etc could make this C19th , C20th or recent , imo, The mark is a standard seal mark for yongzheng (see the gotheborg porcelain marks website) but even allowing for the glaze flaw, the mark is very cramped and poorly written , imo, which suggests a later date than C19th. These kinds of monochromes are very popular decorative items now in China and have been extensively copied ,.
The footrim is also unusual - with cobalt blue on the foot itself , and a squared off foot and burnt coloured unglazed footrim - so I would guess this vase is C20th or later, rather than any earlier.
tam
Thanks for the input Tam!
If you look closely, the mark is actually different from gotheborg and every standard Yongzheng mark I've seen. The foot rim is indeed unusual which has left me to wonder as well. I appreciate your thoughts! let's see if anyone has anything else to add.
Not sure about this vase, but it could be an interesting one.
We can’t see the real shape because the pictures have been taken too much close to it. It is better to take pictures at a bigger distance and then crop them.
BTW the shape is not Gu form.
The potting is fine, those ribs in very low relief are promising, but like Tam I find really strange that blue edge of the glaze, besides the color of the foot.
I am open to all the possibilities; it should be examined directly by an expert.
Regards,
Giovanni
The character "Yong" is not the standard one. Variation of mark happened at late 19th C, early 20th C. Pieces from imperial collection are copied often at this time.
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Hi Tipton444 -
Concur with Xian, this is a late 19th/early 20th piece copying a known 18th C Imperial form ...
Attached images of a pale celadon glazed Yongzheng m/p vase of similar profile Zhuyuetang Collection, also an image showing variations of this mark used on Imperial wares during this reign ...
Stuart
Thank you Clay and Xin for your help! You are right Clay, I took the pictures too close, I'll have to work on some more professional pics, but in the meantime I took a few quick ones outside, one from far away in a shadowed area and cropped it, and a couple close ups in the sunlight to show the color and ribbing more. I'm not sure if that one picture is good enough to help judge the shape or not.
This shape is based on an archaic bronze vessel shape correct? I've just seen quite a few of this shape called Hu, not Gu, even though the real Hu shape is a bit different. Let me know if there are any other names for this shape. Are the low relief "ribs" hard for a potter to accomplish? If it's not too hard, it must take more time and precision, and it's probably not something out of a mold I'm guessing.
Xin, thank you for that info about the "Yong" mark variation. This makes a lot of sense, although I scoured the internet and couldn't find another one marked like that, I did find a few similar shaped vases that were sold as 19th century.
Ah thank you very much Ming. I initially thought and hoped it was a late 19th or early 20th century example. So the mark definitely helps ID the time period as it is not the same as an 18th century imperial ware, but a variation of the mark used in the late 19th century or early 20th century. Very neat. I'm glad to hear it wasn't some potter mistake! The pale celadon glazed vase is remarkable, I wonder what the value of that would be.
Hi Tipton,
the shape is not Gu and not Hu. I would say that it should be considered in the baluster form group.
Those fine ribs are not difficult to obtain, the vase is not made by mold, it is made on the potter’s wheel and so it is easy; it is just matter of fine taste, which many times the faker does not have.
I have the same feeling than others here; if not new, the vase could be a 19th Century copy.
Regards,
Giovanni
This shape originates from bronze of Han dynasty.
www.wyssemaria-art.com
[email protected]
https://www.lotsearch.net/lot/a-chinese-monochrome-celadon-vase-hu-qianlong-mark-19-20th-c-br-h-47507467?page=6 https://www.rm-auctions.com/en/asian-arts-autumn-2019/15376-a-chinese-monochrome-celadon-vase-hu-qianlong-mark-19-20th-c
Thank you all very much! The links were very helpful, didn't see those before. It's always nice when a little learning pays off in the field!
I just found a few more. It might be the larger size of the example at Christie's that is the reason for the quite high estimate? https://www.christies.com/lotfinder/Lot/a-celadon-glazed-hu-vase-yongzheng-underglaze-5380623-details.aspx https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/17332/lot/1350/
Hi Tipton444 -
Xian is quite correct, this form is based on ancient bronze vessels ...
The Zhuyuetang collection also holds a Yongzheng m/p, example in ‘tea-dust’ glaze, H. 24.5 cm - attached images.
Both were exhibited recently, along with many other pieces from this collection, along with monochromes from the Baur collection, in the Museum of Far Eastern Art, Geneva ...
Stuart
Dear Xin,
I don’t know if Sotheby’s is right on those vases.
Of the three vases that you have shown, only the third one, the bronze vase, has a real Hu form in my opinion.
The classic Hu form have the largest diameter in the lower part of the body, and a short foot, if any.
Like mine one in the attached picture.
The shape of other two vases, like the one of Tipton, is much more similar to the baluster form, having the larger diameter in the upper part of the body, just below the shoulders.
They are just fatter than the real baluster form, but the shape is that one; in fact I said that it should be more properly seen “in the baluster group”.
To be precise, the attribution to Hu shape is more understandable for the two vases of Sotheby’s, because they are more fat than the one of Tipton.
Also the shape of those shown by Avatar is more toward Hu shape.
Basically, I mean that the classic Hu form have the center of the mass toward the lower part of the vase, while the baluster shape has that center toward the upper part.
Anyway, matter of opinions.
Regards,
Giovanni
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