Posted by: imperialfinegems

Hi short dong,

Impressive looking export plate. I look forward to further pics ad requested by tam.

Mark

Here are some pictures,

I got it for about 12 euro incl postage and then another 3,50 euro to ship from northern Ireland. 

Courtesy of robihodgso_7

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/robihodgso_7/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from=

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Interesting-old-plate-with-tinned-copper-base-for-water-and-two-handles/123468858451?hash=item1cbf514453:g:sf0AAOSwVYhb3uax

that's an amazing bargain , considering its size and beauty. The restoration looks to be very well-done too, congrats, short-dong

It is a bargain for the size but there are many Celadon famille rose that you can get for about £6 + and also the Famille rose plates are numerous on ebay. So you can almost name your price. However this one was special because it was so large. 

Do you find you can buy Antiques in China or is that also restricted. My understanding is that you cannot export Antiques from China. However can you buy them and is their many Japanese Antiques such as Kutani and Satsuma and Arita.

Very nice example S-D. Nice decoration and a large one at that. You did very well on said price and shipping included.

Mark

Thanks Mark 🙂  I just left a bid and got lucky. 

Beautiful plate, congratulations! In my eyes it could be from Daoguang because of the not-too-crowded painting style and the elaborate rim. Later they began to overfill the plates and include the rim into the design, that's when Rose mandarin started.

hi S-d , in answer to your question about China , there are very few real antiques in the average city here in China , although every place has its curio shops and sometimes weekend markets, sometimes with tens of sellers selling predominantly fakes, or stuff they bought overseas. The weekend traders sell pretty much 100% fakes, bronze, porcelain, jade , you name it....

The only real things you can find are the domestic/minyao wares , like the double happiness ginger jars etc, which are plentiful, and difficult to date, and can be cheap. 

In the antique markets/centres in Shanghai there are more genuine items , gathered by dealers from around China and the world. You are free to buy but the good stuff cannot be exported, and in any case there are no bargains here for the imperial items. (Chinese dealers often quote double or more the price they expect to get for an antique)

Although the rules on export are clear,  I have never been stopped at China customs on the way out, so small things might be ok. If you sent by post then maybe not. 

I live in the same province as Jingdezhen , so there are shops here selling 1970s onwards export teapots, cups etc and other mass produced items . But there are no older export wares.

I took a photo last week of the shop front of one curio store - it's not very clear but you can see in the window some domestic jars, most are damaged and from either the republic or PRC. The owner of this shop was honest about the age of his stock. Most dealers here are not .

I don't see too many Japanese things, except in the Shanghai shops (and these are usually imported from Europe, or bought in auction in the US etc.) . Some Chinese collectors seem to like kutani , and maybe nabeshima.

I also like the way it isn't over-crowded and it is nicely painted, too: it doesn't look rushed.  You got something nice there for a good price! 

Julia

Posted by: Shinigami

Beautiful plate, congratulations! In my eyes it could be from Daoguang because of the not-too-crowded painting style and the elaborate rim. Later they began to overfill the plates and include the rim into the design, that's when Rose mandarin started.

Thank you so much for that information Shinigami, 🙂 really appreciate that. This raises a question for me, Rose Mandarin as we know them are the Famille rose with the figures in a courtyard, and the borders are flowers and fruit and birds. They are gold and green, with multi coloured figures in a courtyard.

However the 18th century Mandarin which is this is typically orange 

is also called Mandarin. 

Posted by: tam18

hi S-d , in answer to your question about China , there are very few real antiques in the average city here in China , although every place has its curio shops and sometimes weekend markets, sometimes with tens of sellers selling predominantly fakes, or stuff they bought overseas. The weekend traders sell pretty much 100% fakes, bronze, porcelain, jade , you name it....

The only real things you can find are the domestic/minyao wares , like the double happiness ginger jars etc, which are plentiful, and difficult to date, and can be cheap. 

In the antique markets/centres in Shanghai there are more genuine items , gathered by dealers from around China and the world. You are free to buy but the good stuff cannot be exported, and in any case there are no bargains here for the imperial items. (Chinese dealers often quote double or more the price they expect to get for an antique)

Although the rules on export are clear,  I have never been stopped at China customs on the way out, so small things might be ok. If you sent by post then maybe not. 

 

I live in the same province as Jingdezhen , so there are shops here selling 1970s onwards export teapots, cups etc and other mass produced items . But there are no older export wares.

I took a photo last week of the shop front of one curio store - it's not very clear but you can see in the window some domestic jars, most are damaged and from either the republic or PRC. The owner of this shop was honest about the age of his stock. Most dealers here are not .

-- attachment is not available --

 

I don't see too many Japanese things, except in the Shanghai shops (and these are usually imported from Europe, or bought in auction in the US etc.) . Some Chinese collectors seem to like kutani , and maybe nabeshima.

 

Tam 

That is fascinating thanks. You will have such a keen eye for authentic Porcelain since you will be so familiar with contemporary Chinese porcelain. I also learned something new nabeshima which is a type of Japanese i was not familiar with until you mentioned it. So the Chinese like Kutani  that is interesting, as there is a lot of Kutani in europe. 

I would love to go to China some day. My ex girl friend was from Mongolia, and she always insisted we go there some day, we had some great ideas about shipping Cashmere back to europe :). 

You're right Short Dong, the names are a bit confusing. The 18th century pattern with orange and lilac is called Mandarin. The 19th century pattern with the little people in the courtyard is also called Mandarin or Rose Mandarin. If there are just flowers and no people it's called Rose Medallion. I have these definitions from Schiffer's book "Chinese Export Porcelain", but others might use other names for it. However 18th and 19th century Mandarin is easily discernable. There are some stages in between where the patterns developed. Here are some pictures where the development can be seen:

Qianlong Mandarin:

Daoguang Mandarin:

Guangxu Mandarin:

Tongzhi Rose Medallion, made for the islamic market:

By the way, according to Schiffer there's a shortcut to judge the quality of 19th century pieces: look at how the central medallion is painted. It stands for the quality of the whole piece.

Posted by: Shinigami

By the way, according to Schiffer there's a shortcut to judge the quality of 19th century pieces: look at how the central medallion is painted. It stands for the quality of the whole piece.

Interestingly, I did hear this before and in the 'bough pot' thread the central medallion is very poorly painted. So there ya go 🙂 

Posted by: Shinigami

You're right Short Dong, the names are a bit confusing. The 18th century pattern with orange and lilac is called Mandarin. The 19th century pattern with the little people in the courtyard is also called Mandarin or Rose Mandarin. If there are just flowers and no people it's called Rose Medallion. I have these definitions from Schiffer's book "Chinese Export Porcelain", but others might use other names for it. However 18th and 19th century Mandarin is easily discernable. There are some stages in between where the patterns developed. Here are some pictures where the development can be seen:

Qianlong Mandarin:

Daoguang Mandarin:

Guangxu Mandarin:

Tongzhi Rose Medallion, made for the islamic market:

 

Thank you 🙂  That is a great chronological order. My favorite are the Qianlong Mandarin by far.